LinuxQuestions.org
Register a domain and help support LQ
Go Back   LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Non-*NIX Forums > General
User Name
Password
General This forum is for non-technical general discussion which can include both Linux and non-Linux topics. Have fun!

Notices

Reply
 
Search this Thread
Old 08-21-2011, 02:58 PM   #1
bluegospel
Member
 
Registered: Jan 2010
Distribution: centOS
Posts: 404

Rep: Reputation: 53
Lightbulb The Microsoft Scheme


As a newbie I'm not privy to too many things technical, or “inside-information” in the computer world, but it just struck me today what Microsoft is doing. Microsoft knows very well that standards are being set for the industry and that they have no alternate course but to conform themselves. Yet by delaying the pace at which they themselves conform—because they can as the industry leader—they end up stifling the pace at which standards are being set, in effect buying their time as the leader.

The one thing I don't understand is why the standard setters tolerate their scheme. Any ideas?

Last edited by bluegospel; 08-21-2011 at 05:34 PM. Reason: typo; add idea icon
 
Old 08-21-2011, 02:59 PM   #2
H_TeXMeX_H
Guru
 
Registered: Oct 2005
Location: $RANDOM
Distribution: slackware64
Posts: 12,928
Blog Entries: 2

Rep: Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269
Probably because they are financed or bribed my M$.
 
Old 08-21-2011, 03:18 PM   #3
bluegospel
Member
 
Registered: Jan 2010
Distribution: centOS
Posts: 404

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
Probably because they are financed or bribed my M$.
Probably some, but I doubt that there's a concesus of scandal among the standards-leadership.
 
Old 08-21-2011, 03:24 PM   #4
TB0ne
Guru
 
Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Distribution: SuSE, RedHat, Slack,CentOS
Posts: 14,192

Rep: Reputation: 2469Reputation: 2469Reputation: 2469Reputation: 2469Reputation: 2469Reputation: 2469Reputation: 2469Reputation: 2469Reputation: 2469Reputation: 2469Reputation: 2469
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
As a newbie I'm not to privy to too many things technical, or “inside-information” in the computer world, but it just struck me today what Microsoft is doing. Microsoft knows very well that standards are being set for the industry and that they have no alternate course but to conform themselves. Yet by delaying the pace at which they themselves conform—because they can as the industry leader—they end up stifling the pace at which standards are being set, in effect buying their time as the leader.

The one thing I don't understand is why the standard setters tolerate their scheme. Any ideas?
Wrong way to look at it. They don't "tolerate" it...because there's nothing ANYONE can DO about it. What would you think they could do? Send the police down to Microsoft Headquarters, put a gun to a programmers head and FORCE HIM to write something that obeys the standards?? MS does what they want to, same as any other company. It's up to the consumer to buy it/use it or not.

Joe Sixpack who buys a PC at Wal-Mart doesn't care, as long as they get their email, and can watch a video online. They don't know/care about DRM, viruses, or whatever...they know they push the button, the computer comes on, and they click the icon to do something. MS drags their feet, so that they can push THEIR version of the 'standard' out...look at IE. No one actually cares anymore what MS does, really....folks who know better simply load Linux or buy a Mac. Apple has seen their share of the desktop market grow (albeit slowly), and Linux encroaches more and more on the desktop, not to mention the back-end server market.
 
Old 08-21-2011, 03:39 PM   #5
dugan
Senior Member
 
Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Canada
Distribution: distro hopper
Posts: 4,562

Rep: Reputation: 1394Reputation: 1394Reputation: 1394Reputation: 1394Reputation: 1394Reputation: 1394Reputation: 1394Reputation: 1394Reputation: 1394Reputation: 1394
The people who write the standards just write the standards. If Microsoft doesn't conform to those standards, it's not their problem.
 
Old 08-21-2011, 03:53 PM   #6
SigTerm
Member
 
Registered: Dec 2009
Distribution: Slackware 12.2
Posts: 379

Rep: Reputation: 233Reputation: 233Reputation: 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
As a newbie I'm not to privy to too many things technical, or “inside-information” in the computer world, but it just struck me today what Microsoft is doing. Microsoft knows very well that standards are being set for the industry and that they have no alternate course but to conform themselves.
Not exactly. The most obvious decision for them(Microsoft) would be to make their own standards, protect them with patents and those standards to their own products, and ensure that either nobody except them will make any profit using it or that anybody using the standard would split their profit with them. I believe that any big company cares only about money and about nothing else. So they will conform to existing standard only if it is very profitable for them. If conforming to standard brings no profit, they'll ignore it. If your standard isn't attractive, it won't be used, obviously. Once you understand that "they care ONLY about money", everything gets very simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
The one thing I don't understand is why the standard setters tolerate their scheme. Any ideas?
Ahem. AFAIK, standard setters has no power over their own standard. You can invent any standard you want, but if it isn't used by anybody, you'll simply waste your effort. The ones that can use the standard are people with cash.
 
Old 08-21-2011, 05:39 PM   #7
bluegospel
Member
 
Registered: Jan 2010
Distribution: centOS
Posts: 404

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by TB0ne View Post
It's up to the consumer to buy it/use it or not.
That was another thought. But then the standard setters, if they wanted to, could easily publicise--blow the whistle so to speak--Microsoft's failure to conform, but they don't.

Last edited by bluegospel; 08-21-2011 at 05:59 PM. Reason: include ommission; punctuation
 
Old 08-21-2011, 05:53 PM   #8
bluegospel
Member
 
Registered: Jan 2010
Distribution: centOS
Posts: 404

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 53
Quote:
You can invent any standard you want, but if it isn't used by anybody, you'll simply waste your effort.
I'm talking about the standards, for example, set by w3c, et. al. If Microsofts were to blatently disregard most of their standards, don't you think they'd lose considerable market share?
 
Old 08-21-2011, 06:53 PM   #9
TB0ne
Guru
 
Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Distribution: SuSE, RedHat, Slack,CentOS
Posts: 14,192

Rep: Reputation: 2469Reputation: 2469Reputation: 2469Reputation: 2469Reputation: 2469Reputation: 2469Reputation: 2469Reputation: 2469Reputation: 2469Reputation: 2469Reputation: 2469
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
That was another thought. But then the standard setters, if they wanted to, could easily publicise--blow the whistle so to speak--Microsoft's failure to conform, but they don't.
Uhh...yes, they DO, frequently, and loudly. There is absolutely NO shortage of articles about MS's failures to obey standards. Check any tech-related website you want, the W3C site, IEEE, etc., and you'll find lots.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel
I'm talking about the standards, for example, set by w3c, et. al. If Microsofts were to blatently disregard most of their standards, don't you think they'd lose considerable market share?
No...because again, the consumers who know/care about such things already ignore Microsoft. But, since Windows ships on PC's already, the folks who don't know/care (most consumers), happily use it. Can you honestly say you've not heard about any of the failures in Internet Explorer? Silverlight? Windows Media Player?

There is no great conspiracy, sorry.

Last edited by TB0ne; 08-21-2011 at 06:54 PM.
 
Old 08-21-2011, 07:11 PM   #10
bluegospel
Member
 
Registered: Jan 2010
Distribution: centOS
Posts: 404

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 53
Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by TB0ne View Post
Uhh...yes, they DO, frequently, and loudly. There is absolutely NO shortage of articles about MS's failures to obey standards. Check any tech-related website you want, the W3C site, IEEE, etc., and you'll find lots.
Consumers don't read these reports, technical folks do. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't publications like, "Smart Computing" and other consumer computing publications rather friendly towards Windows? Does't most mainstream media cater to Microsoft?

Quote:
There is no great conspiracy, sorry.
I'm not naysaying here; in fact I've already stated here I don't believe there's a general scandal. I'm just saying why don't the change agents let consumers know what's really up with Microsoft?
 
Old 08-21-2011, 08:18 PM   #11
SigTerm
Member
 
Registered: Dec 2009
Distribution: Slackware 12.2
Posts: 379

Rep: Reputation: 233Reputation: 233Reputation: 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
I'm talking about the standards, for example, set by w3c, et. al. If Microsofts were to blatently disregard most of their standards, don't you think they'd lose considerable market share?
They can hijack and modify them. "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish". Standard is a paper. A software company will conform to it only if it is profitable or if there's no other choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
I'm just saying why don't the change agents let consumers know what's really up with Microsoft?
Consumer's don't care and won't care. In order to understand the meaning of the "problem", you're need to be "good with computers" which requires a noticeable amount of experience (few years?). Majority of people have other things to do instead of tinkering with computers.

For example: I recently heard a story about a (non-english) MMO company who installed kernel-level copy protection software onto machine of their every client. You can't get rid of that, it is probably vulnerable, and technically it is a ready-to use botnet. Now, try to explain the problem to "average" person...

Another thing is that even if you're skilled, I see no reason to treat a standard as something sacred.
 
Old 08-21-2011, 08:24 PM   #12
AnanthaP
Member
 
Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Chennai, India
Distribution: UBUNTU 5.10 since Jul-18,2006 on Intel 820 DC
Posts: 606

Rep: Reputation: 127Reputation: 127
Market has it's own dynamics.

Front end software from Microsoft is the most recognised and practiced. Therefore they are able to get away with anything.

Secondly, and even more important, even though Microsoft is a member of most standards organisations and committees, they dont participate but just hang around in the background and make their own alternative versions. The latest example was seen in the Open Document Format.

OK
 
Old 08-21-2011, 08:47 PM   #13
bluegospel
Member
 
Registered: Jan 2010
Distribution: centOS
Posts: 404

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
Consumer's don't care and won't care. In order to understand the meaning of the "problem", you're need to be "good with computers" which requires a noticeable amount of experience (few years?). Majority of people have other things to do instead of tinkering with computers.
Right but if the authorities would let the people know that they're being taken as suckers, that they do have better options, and that the multitudes of the issues that come up for Microsoft users are totally unnecessary, I think they would listen.

Quote:
For example: I recently heard a story about a (non-english) MMO company who installed kernel-level copy protection software onto machine of their every client. You can't get rid of that, it is probably vulnerable, and technically it is a ready-to use botnet. Now, try to explain the problem to "average" person...
Sorry, most of that's still over my head. I am learning though.
 
Old 08-21-2011, 08:55 PM   #14
bluegospel
Member
 
Registered: Jan 2010
Distribution: centOS
Posts: 404

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnanthaP View Post
Secondly, and even more important, even though Microsoft is a member of most standards organisations and committees, they dont participate but just hang around in the background and make their own alternative versions. The latest example was seen in the Open Document Format.

OK
Well yeah, that makes sense. Microsoft isn't going to be friendly with their competitors, most of whom aren't secretive. They'll hang around the meetings just to be in the know, so they can work the system.

But then doesn't MSFT eventually conform to most of these standards?

Last edited by bluegospel; 08-21-2011 at 08:59 PM. Reason: extend content
 
Old 08-21-2011, 09:06 PM   #15
AnanthaP
Member
 
Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Chennai, India
Distribution: UBUNTU 5.10 since Jul-18,2006 on Intel 820 DC
Posts: 606

Rep: Reputation: 127Reputation: 127
Standards are decided by international consensus. If there is no unanimity, there is a vote with each country getting one. It needs two third majority to make a standard. Also, there can be multiple standards.

As of writing, open document format is a standards and open xml (the microsoft proposal) is just short of the two thirds needed.

Importantly, Microsoft is in the drafting committee of the open document format but didn't make any contribution.

OK
 
  


Reply

Tags
microsoft, standards, w3c


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Partitioning Scheme Xswitch Ubuntu 1 04-24-2007 10:42 AM
Password generation failed for scheme {CRYPT}: scheme not recognized olva Linux - General 0 11-05-2006 11:21 AM
Scheme programming poeta_boy Programming 39 03-30-2006 11:14 AM
How to install a scheme Starch Linux - Newbie 4 08-16-2005 08:43 AM
font scheme nautilus_1987 Slackware 12 08-24-2002 06:44 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:36 PM.

Main Menu
My LQ
Write for LQ
LinuxQuestions.org is looking for people interested in writing Editorials, Articles, Reviews, and more. If you'd like to contribute content, let us know.
Main Menu
Syndicate
RSS1  Latest Threads
RSS1  LQ News
Twitter: @linuxquestions
identi.ca: @linuxquestions
Facebook: linuxquestions Google+: linuxquestions
Open Source Consulting | Domain Registration