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Old 08-22-2011, 05:23 PM   #61
bluegospel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
if you're developer, it is your job to deal with all those situations, all those problems associated with underlying platform, all incompatibilites
Yeah, I guess that makes sense. But still, I think Microsoft is a considerable variable in the progress of IT, and not favorable.
 
Old 08-22-2011, 08:09 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
You seem to assume that greed is "bad". Can you prove it?
Check your Websters:

Quote:
Greed: : a selfish and excessive desire for more of something (as money) than is needed.
The key words are "selfish and unrestrained."

I think that mountaintop removal mining might be one of the exhibits in that case.

Flown over West Virginia lately?
 
Old 08-22-2011, 10:27 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by frankbell View Post
The key words are "selfish and unrestrained."
I'm not convinced.
 
Old 08-22-2011, 11:39 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
The point I've tried to make though, is not that Windows hinders Linux, but that they create a bottle neck for the setting of standards--which slows down considerably the progress of IT in general.
I agree with you, in part. The reason I say in part, is because it is not just MS's use of proprietary formats which creates that bottleneck...but also the fact that so many consumers just use them and go along with whatever MS shoves down their throats. The more of us who use FOSS....the more that will change.

When shopping for a new printer recently, I naturally chose one whose manufacturer oofers Linux drivers. I will now not buy any computer-related product that is not Linux compatible. Some companies have already gotten the idea...and who knows, maybe one day, MS will be the one trying to keep up with FOSS standards, because their customers will demand it as Linux users become more common.
 
Old 08-23-2011, 12:21 AM   #65
rob.rice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TB0ne View Post

How does MS "shut out" the open source community? Answer: they don't, because they CAN'T. There is no board of directors, management committee, etc. for OSS, and the leadership there is would welcome MS's involvement....if it didn't also come with strings attached to it, and that's where the problem is. Neither the OSS leadership nor MS is going to budge on that one way or the other, so they each do their own things.
they DO lock out some hardware from other O/Ss by writing drivers in exchange for a NDA
a good example of this is cannon printers
if you can't get information about a device you can't write a driver for it
I have even heard apple users bitching about this
 
Old 08-23-2011, 06:05 AM   #66
brianL
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SigTerm
For the benefit of us that are not as enlightened/well-educated as you obviously are, can you explain why greed is not bad?
 
Old 08-23-2011, 07:38 AM   #67
H_TeXMeX_H
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I think I've had enough of SigTerm's genius arguments for a while ... on the ignore list you go.
 
Old 08-23-2011, 09:27 AM   #68
TB0ne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
You're really saying, as much professional experience as you have, that Microsoft's refusal to conform doesn't slow you down personally as a programmer? Don't you time and again have to 1) use workarounds to make your programs work accross platforms? 2) study and learn new workaround every time a new technology comes out?
Doesn't slow me down at all, and in fact, HELPS me quite a bit. The code I write obeys the standards, and since I KNOW them, they're easy to follow. So, for point (1), I don't use workarounds, since the 'platform' doesn't matter. Firefox and Chrome run on all platforms, and if I'm writing a piece of 'fat' code/client, I write it the way *I* see fit. MS doesn't enter into it at all. And (2), when ISN'T there a new technology to learn?? Are you so young or naive that you think there's some point when you quit learning?
Quote:
Granted I'm totally a newbie, but as such I've already run into these issues time and again. If it slows us down as programmers, certainly MSFT's shenanigans stifle standards setters, and commerce in general (sic).
Once again, MS does NOT stifle standards setters, since THEY DO NOT CARE WHAT MS DOES. You obviously don't pay attention to what folks here have been saying, leading again to a stronger suspicion of yet another 'troll' thread.
 
Old 08-23-2011, 11:13 AM   #69
bluegospel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumguy View Post
I agree with you, in part. The reason I say in part, is because it is not just MS's use of proprietary formats which creates that bottleneck...but also the fact that so many consumers just use them and go along with whatever MS shoves down their throats. The more of us who use FOSS....the more that will change.
Absolutely. Microsoft's not the only culpable party. Consumers as well as many of us in the open-source camp are responsible too. Yet if Microsoft would conform, that change in itself would turn the tide of the others. By ourselves we can't change gravity much, but the mass of MSoft could.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumguy View Post
When shopping for a new printer recently, I naturally chose one whose manufacturer oofers Linux drivers. I will now not buy any computer-related product that is not Linux compatible. Some companies have already gotten the idea...and who knows, maybe one day, MS will be the one trying to keep up with FOSS standards, because their customers will demand it as Linux users become more common.
That shows conviction. What resources have you found most accomodating when shopping?

Last edited by bluegospel; 08-23-2011 at 11:14 AM. Reason: opening quote tag
 
Old 08-23-2011, 11:27 AM   #70
bluegospel
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by TB0ne View Post
Are you so young or naive that you think there's some point when you quit learning?
Absolutely not! Young and sometimes ignorant as a programmer, yes. Forsaking very careful study, never. As a very wise person said millenia ago, "Wisdom is the principle thing, therefore get wisdom. Though it costs all you have, get understanding." And that's a principle I live by.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TB0ne View Post
The code I write obeys the standards, and since I KNOW them, they're easy to follow. So, for point (1), I don't use workarounds, since the 'platform' doesn't matter. Firefox and Chrome run on all platforms,
I don't quite understand what your saying here. Are you saying you only write code for open-source apps? For example, if you were writing a script to run in a browser, wouldn't you give consideration to IE?

Last edited by bluegospel; 08-23-2011 at 11:34 AM. Reason: quote tags
 
Old 08-23-2011, 01:48 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
Absolutely not! Young and sometimes ignorant as a programmer, yes. Forsaking very careful study, never. As a very wise person said millenia ago, "Wisdom is the principle thing, therefore get wisdom. Though it costs all you have, get understanding." And that's a principle I live by.
Really? So then why do you persist in this thread, when your point has been addressed MANY TIMES, but the things people are saying appear to fall on deaf ears? There is no "Microsoft Scheme"...no conspiracy, and MS doesn't hold anyone back from anything. Re-read all the replies you've got since opening this thread, and they're all basically saying the same thing.
Quote:
I don't quite understand what your saying here. Are you saying you only write code for open-source apps? For example, if you were writing a script to run in a browser, wouldn't you give consideration to IE?
No, and you should apply your "careful study" principle to what people are telling you; there is little left to interpretation, unless you're very young, very naive, or are just a troll.

I write code that obeys the STANDARD. I do NOT write work-arounds...if it doesn't work, I lay the blame where it needs to go, and that would be on IE. If I write a piece of client software to run stand-alone, again, I write it to obey the standards (SQL, TCP/IP, etc.), and don't put in ANYTHING that doesn't, or that the software doesn't need, period.

Last edited by TB0ne; 08-23-2011 at 01:49 PM.
 
Old 08-23-2011, 09:09 PM   #72
bluegospel
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Originally Posted by TB0ne View Post
No [I don't consider IE when writing code for a browser] I write code that obeys the STANDARD. I do NOT write work-arounds...if it doesn't work, I lay the blame where it needs to go, and that would be on IE. If I write a piece of client software to run stand-alone, again, I write it to obey the standards (SQL, TCP/IP, etc.), and don't put in ANYTHING that doesn't, or that the software doesn't need, period.
Okay, that puts what your saying in much better perspective. But I thought it was the programmers job to accomodate all platforms, especially when writing web pages, unless it's only on an intranet or something and everyone's running standards-compliant browsers.
 
Old 08-23-2011, 09:39 PM   #73
SigTerm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
But I thought it was the programmers job to accomodate all platforms,
Not quite. It is programmers job to accommodate all platforms their customers use. Which is smaller number than "all platforms". Normally I'd expect developer to have some idea about "target audience", and programmer's job is to find a compromise that will satisfy entire audience without wasting too much development time. Not all software can be made to run anywhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
especially when writing web pages,
Same applies to web pages. You don't expect to see flash animation or background image in links when it is running in terminal, right?
 
Old 08-24-2011, 01:08 AM   #74
Sumguy
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Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
Absolutely. Microsoft's not the only culpable party. Consumers as well as many of us in the open-source camp are responsible too. Yet if Microsoft would conform, that change in itself would turn the tide of the others. By ourselves we can't change gravity much, but the mass of MSoft could.
MS is not likely to do that though, until such time as the market demands it [i.e. if so many people are using Linux, that Windows users become concerned with having products that support FOSS formats), because their proprietary formats are a key to them maintaining their market share and making a profit. The most common argument I hear for people being reluctant to abandon Windows, is the fear of incompatibility with their peers who use Windows/MS products. It's a vicious cycle. In such a scenario, the one who gets the lion's share of the market first, controls the formats to a large extent...until such time as their customers become disgusted and seek alternatives.- Which is exactly what happened with me.



Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
That shows conviction. What resources have you found most accomodating when shopping?
It's pretty much a case-by-case thing. User reviews...specialty sites, like openprinting.org...checking manufacturer's websites...and of course, advice from this forum- which is invaluable to a noob like myself. (I'm VERY pleased with the performance of my Brother Laser printer)
 
  


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