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bluegospel 08-21-2011 02:58 PM

The Microsoft Scheme
 
As a newbie I'm not privy to too many things technical, or “inside-information” in the computer world, but it just struck me today what Microsoft is doing. Microsoft knows very well that standards are being set for the industry and that they have no alternate course but to conform themselves. Yet by delaying the pace at which they themselves conform—because they can as the industry leader—they end up stifling the pace at which standards are being set, in effect buying their time as the leader.

The one thing I don't understand is why the standard setters tolerate their scheme. Any ideas?

H_TeXMeX_H 08-21-2011 02:59 PM

Probably because they are financed or bribed my M$.

bluegospel 08-21-2011 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H (Post 4449520)
Probably because they are financed or bribed my M$.

Probably some, but I doubt that there's a concesus of scandal among the standards-leadership.

TB0ne 08-21-2011 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluegospel (Post 4449517)
As a newbie I'm not to privy to too many things technical, or “inside-information” in the computer world, but it just struck me today what Microsoft is doing. Microsoft knows very well that standards are being set for the industry and that they have no alternate course but to conform themselves. Yet by delaying the pace at which they themselves conform—because they can as the industry leader—they end up stifling the pace at which standards are being set, in effect buying their time as the leader.

The one thing I don't understand is why the standard setters tolerate their scheme. Any ideas?

Wrong way to look at it. They don't "tolerate" it...because there's nothing ANYONE can DO about it. What would you think they could do? Send the police down to Microsoft Headquarters, put a gun to a programmers head and FORCE HIM to write something that obeys the standards?? MS does what they want to, same as any other company. It's up to the consumer to buy it/use it or not.

Joe Sixpack who buys a PC at Wal-Mart doesn't care, as long as they get their email, and can watch a video online. They don't know/care about DRM, viruses, or whatever...they know they push the button, the computer comes on, and they click the icon to do something. MS drags their feet, so that they can push THEIR version of the 'standard' out...look at IE. No one actually cares anymore what MS does, really....folks who know better simply load Linux or buy a Mac. Apple has seen their share of the desktop market grow (albeit slowly), and Linux encroaches more and more on the desktop, not to mention the back-end server market.

dugan 08-21-2011 03:39 PM

The people who write the standards just write the standards. If Microsoft doesn't conform to those standards, it's not their problem.

SigTerm 08-21-2011 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluegospel (Post 4449517)
As a newbie I'm not to privy to too many things technical, or “inside-information” in the computer world, but it just struck me today what Microsoft is doing. Microsoft knows very well that standards are being set for the industry and that they have no alternate course but to conform themselves.

Not exactly. The most obvious decision for them(Microsoft) would be to make their own standards, protect them with patents and those standards to their own products, and ensure that either nobody except them will make any profit using it or that anybody using the standard would split their profit with them. I believe that any big company cares only about money and about nothing else. So they will conform to existing standard only if it is very profitable for them. If conforming to standard brings no profit, they'll ignore it. If your standard isn't attractive, it won't be used, obviously. Once you understand that "they care ONLY about money", everything gets very simple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluegospel (Post 4449517)
The one thing I don't understand is why the standard setters tolerate their scheme. Any ideas?

Ahem. AFAIK, standard setters has no power over their own standard. You can invent any standard you want, but if it isn't used by anybody, you'll simply waste your effort. The ones that can use the standard are people with cash.

bluegospel 08-21-2011 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TB0ne (Post 4449534)
It's up to the consumer to buy it/use it or not.

That was another thought. But then the standard setters, if they wanted to, could easily publicise--blow the whistle so to speak--Microsoft's failure to conform, but they don't.

bluegospel 08-21-2011 05:53 PM

Quote:

You can invent any standard you want, but if it isn't used by anybody, you'll simply waste your effort.
I'm talking about the standards, for example, set by w3c, et. al. If Microsofts were to blatently disregard most of their standards, don't you think they'd lose considerable market share?

TB0ne 08-21-2011 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluegospel (Post 4449611)
That was another thought. But then the standard setters, if they wanted to, could easily publicise--blow the whistle so to speak--Microsoft's failure to conform, but they don't.

Uhh...yes, they DO, frequently, and loudly. There is absolutely NO shortage of articles about MS's failures to obey standards. Check any tech-related website you want, the W3C site, IEEE, etc., and you'll find lots.
Quote:

Originally Posted by bluegospel
I'm talking about the standards, for example, set by w3c, et. al. If Microsofts were to blatently disregard most of their standards, don't you think they'd lose considerable market share?

No...because again, the consumers who know/care about such things already ignore Microsoft. But, since Windows ships on PC's already, the folks who don't know/care (most consumers), happily use it. Can you honestly say you've not heard about any of the failures in Internet Explorer? Silverlight? Windows Media Player?

There is no great conspiracy, sorry.

bluegospel 08-21-2011 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TB0ne (Post 4449637)
Uhh...yes, they DO, frequently, and loudly. There is absolutely NO shortage of articles about MS's failures to obey standards. Check any tech-related website you want, the W3C site, IEEE, etc., and you'll find lots.

Consumers don't read these reports, technical folks do. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't publications like, "Smart Computing" and other consumer computing publications rather friendly towards Windows? Does't most mainstream media cater to Microsoft?

Quote:

There is no great conspiracy, sorry.
I'm not naysaying here; in fact I've already stated here I don't believe there's a general scandal. I'm just saying why don't the change agents let consumers know what's really up with Microsoft?

SigTerm 08-21-2011 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluegospel (Post 4449618)
I'm talking about the standards, for example, set by w3c, et. al. If Microsofts were to blatently disregard most of their standards, don't you think they'd lose considerable market share?

They can hijack and modify them. "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish". Standard is a paper. A software company will conform to it only if it is profitable or if there's no other choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluegospel (Post 4449644)
I'm just saying why don't the change agents let consumers know what's really up with Microsoft?

Consumer's don't care and won't care. In order to understand the meaning of the "problem", you're need to be "good with computers" which requires a noticeable amount of experience (few years?). Majority of people have other things to do instead of tinkering with computers.

For example: I recently heard a story about a (non-english) MMO company who installed kernel-level copy protection software onto machine of their every client. You can't get rid of that, it is probably vulnerable, and technically it is a ready-to use botnet. Now, try to explain the problem to "average" person...

Another thing is that even if you're skilled, I see no reason to treat a standard as something sacred.

AnanthaP 08-21-2011 08:24 PM

Market has it's own dynamics.

Front end software from Microsoft is the most recognised and practiced. Therefore they are able to get away with anything.

Secondly, and even more important, even though Microsoft is a member of most standards organisations and committees, they dont participate but just hang around in the background and make their own alternative versions. The latest example was seen in the Open Document Format.

OK

bluegospel 08-21-2011 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SigTerm (Post 4449665)
Consumer's don't care and won't care. In order to understand the meaning of the "problem", you're need to be "good with computers" which requires a noticeable amount of experience (few years?). Majority of people have other things to do instead of tinkering with computers.

Right but if the authorities would let the people know that they're being taken as suckers, that they do have better options, and that the multitudes of the issues that come up for Microsoft users are totally unnecessary, I think they would listen.

Quote:

For example: I recently heard a story about a (non-english) MMO company who installed kernel-level copy protection software onto machine of their every client. You can't get rid of that, it is probably vulnerable, and technically it is a ready-to use botnet. Now, try to explain the problem to "average" person...
Sorry, most of that's still over my head. I am learning though.

bluegospel 08-21-2011 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnanthaP (Post 4449667)
Secondly, and even more important, even though Microsoft is a member of most standards organisations and committees, they dont participate but just hang around in the background and make their own alternative versions. The latest example was seen in the Open Document Format.

OK

Well yeah, that makes sense. Microsoft isn't going to be friendly with their competitors, most of whom aren't secretive. They'll hang around the meetings just to be in the know, so they can work the system.

But then doesn't MSFT eventually conform to most of these standards?

AnanthaP 08-21-2011 09:06 PM

Standards are decided by international consensus. If there is no unanimity, there is a vote with each country getting one. It needs two third majority to make a standard. Also, there can be multiple standards.

As of writing, open document format is a standards and open xml (the microsoft proposal) is just short of the two thirds needed.

Importantly, Microsoft is in the drafting committee of the open document format but didn't make any contribution.

OK


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