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Old 08-30-2013, 10:01 AM   #16
cynwulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
1) A colossal amount of technology is needed for space travel, and even more so for very long distances. A huge amount of energy is also required. Why invest all this ? What do you expect to get out of it ? What is the purpose of it ?
This is a very human and a very earthbound perspective... we cannot know what extra terrestrials would think like or if they would have the same emotions and needs as humans.

We can certainly tell how we humans would behave if we escaped the confines of our planet - it would be pretty much as you suggest and every sci-fi from Alien to Avatar has probably got that close enough (in fact all except star trek, which is quite possibly the most implausible, idealistic sci fi ever created). The human advance into space and colonization of other worlds would bring on the next generation of conquistadores, like those depicted in the film Avatar - the explorers would really be miners and their escorts, working for some mega corp. We can't freely assume that ETs would be driven by the same needs without falling for the fallacy of humanizing (ref: TobiSGD's post) them first...

Where both Avatar and Star Trek fall down, is that they definitely humanize alien life forms to make them acceptable to the viewer in terms of their appearances and their morals/ethics/values or they simply make them outright animal. The "greys" who have featured in most supposed sightings of aliens are also humanized, humanoid, bipeds - in fact, to real aliens, they would probably look almost exactly like humans.
 
Old 08-30-2013, 11:07 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
This is a very human and a very earthbound perspective... we cannot know what extra terrestrials would think like or if they would have the same emotions and needs as humans.

We can certainly tell how we humans would behave if we escaped the confines of our planet - it would be pretty much as you suggest and every sci-fi from Alien to Avatar has probably got that close enough (in fact all except star trek, which is quite possibly the most implausible, idealistic sci fi ever created). The human advance into space and colonization of other worlds would bring on the next generation of conquistadores, like those depicted in the film Avatar - the explorers would really be miners and their escorts, working for some mega corp. We can't freely assume that ETs would be driven by the same needs without falling for the fallacy of humanizing (ref: TobiSGD's post) them first...

Where both Avatar and Star Trek fall down, is that they definitely humanize alien life forms to make them acceptable to the viewer in terms of their appearances and their morals/ethics/values or they simply make them outright animal. The "greys" who have featured in most supposed sightings of aliens are also humanized, humanoid, bipeds - in fact, to real aliens, they would probably look almost exactly like humans.
The way ET can fit is if ET is god-like, i.e. has no needs or wants, has infinite resources, has unrealistic "humanitarian" goals. It's basically a religious figure morphed to fit into the ET genre. That's the only way it could make sense. Because this is in fact the real world, where resources are finite, where living things need resources, and where everyone looks out for themselves first and foremost, and only if they have enough to spare do they look towards helping others, and only if they expect to be paid in some way. This is the only way that makes sense in the real world.

As for the sightings, I will never believe that a humanoid alien abducted some redneck, as it is much more plausible that the redneck was drunk or high or wanted attention and made the whole thing up, and being limited in imagination could only create a humanoid alien abduction story. I mean why humanoid when there are so many forms one can take ? Take a look at all the deep sea creatures, and horseshoe crabs, etc. They have to be humanoid, because there has to be the next step in "logical" connections i.e. that they are our creators, they are our gods, and they will come back and help us ... or maybe just kill us all and/or take us to "heaven".

I do wonder about all the alien shows they run now. Maybe they are planning on staging some alien incident and using this for political advantage. Just a thought.

Last edited by H_TeXMeX_H; 08-30-2013 at 11:09 AM.
 
Old 08-30-2013, 02:23 PM   #18
rokytnji
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I will never believe that a humanoid alien abducted some redneck,as it is much more plausible that the redneck was drunk or high or wanted attention and made the whole thing up, and being limited in imagination could only create a humanoid alien abduction story
Sheesh, I guess I took your Lunch money in High Skool or one of my compadres did.

How about this, since Mex is in your handle. Lot's of sightings in Mexico. No rednecks there asking for attention. Sheesh. (I work out in the Sun, am white, and my neck is sunburnt). But. I be a enlightened redneck.

http://www.ufosightingsdaily.com/201...er-mexico.html

Or did they take your lunch money too once?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ0eStQd3KI
 
Old 08-30-2013, 06:37 PM   #19
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Is there life elsewhere in the universe, undoubtedly. It's an act of purest arrogance to think otherwise. Is this life capable of/interested in/ actually visiting our planet? I very much doubt it.

And I beleive both these things for the same reason. The sheer scale of the universe. The human brain is not capable of any sort of intuitive grasp of just how big it is.

An alien civilisation with the resources at hand to cross intersteller space, let alone intergalactic, would persecute drunken morons on deserted highways why exactly?

Lets be honest, human beings are capable of the most spectacular delusions, which is more likely? Honestly?

Quote:
Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.
~Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Quote:
Pray that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space
cos there's bugger all down here on earth.....
~Eric Idle
 
Old 08-31-2013, 02:14 AM   #20
H_TeXMeX_H
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Originally Posted by rokytnji View Post
That one on the front page looks like a meteor for sure.
 
Old 08-31-2013, 02:19 AM   #21
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As with religion, I'm somewhat of an agnostic to the idea. It would seem extremely likely that there are aliens out there, but highly unlikely that we've been visited by them.
 
Old 08-31-2013, 04:45 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netcrawl View Post
Odds are there are other life forms in the universe. Similarly, odds are we will never meet them, or even know they actually exist.

The following quote is attributed to Bob Park, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_L._Park .

"Choose the nearest star; decide how long you're willing to travel, how fast you will need to go to get there in that time, what you will have to take with you, and how many should be in the crew. Make it a one-way suicide mission if you wish. As a final step, calculate the kinetic energy that must be imparted to the spaceship to get you there in that time (one half the mass times the velocity squared.) I suggest you stay away from the relativistic limit; it complicates the calculation and won't help you anyway. The good news is that you will then sleep secure in the knowledge that UFOs from elsewhere in the galaxy are not subjecting humans to hideous experiments." --Bob Park
That is similar to someone at 50,000+ years ago thinking that there is no way that people will ever figure out how to cross major oceans.

We have no idea what sort of space travelling technologies might be possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
My thinking is: If aliens are traveling in space, they are looking for something they need, perhaps they've run out of resources on their own world.
I'm assuming that our solar system is fairly typical and/or any visiting aliens have to come so far that they have to pass various solar systems to get here.

There is only one resouce that you'll find on earth that you'll either not find elsewhere in the solar system, or if you do find it there will be very limited amounts. That is living things and biomass.

Well, OK, you will find lots of free oxygen here as well. But that is not worth the effort and resouces to come here to get it. The amount of energy needed to come here would probably be several factors higher than finding CO2 and then stripping the carbon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baldy3105 View Post
Is there life elsewhere in the universe, undoubtedly. It's an act of purest arrogance to think otherwise. Is this life capable of/interested in/ actually visiting our planet? I very much doubt it.
Who knows what value biomass and genetic material is 'worth' to alien cultures and technologies?
 
Old 08-31-2013, 05:20 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by brianL View Post
On the first day, God created prebiotic soup. And on the second day, He created boron and molybdenum, sprinkled them on the soup, and said: "Let there be Life".
That reminded me of recent Vatican publication about that they admit alien existance and that they are also God's creatures. Can't find that video but this once is also from same since it is about chief astro-scientist in Vatican.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gB7QhHcYIE
Quote:
Originally Posted by basica View Post
As with religion, I'm somewhat of an agnostic to the idea. It would seem extremely likely that there are aliens out there, but highly unlikely that we've been visited by them.
That has yet to be confirmed..but with our current knowledge about observable universe - it is highly possible we are not alone. Remember people in past also believed Sun rotates around Earth and Earth was flat and similar stuff - somehow all this changed aswell and what was science fiction in past is now everyday common stuff for today and future is not so far either - they are already planning on flying cars etc..
 
Old 08-31-2013, 05:58 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cascade9 View Post
I'm assuming that our solar system is fairly typical and/or any visiting aliens have to come so far that they have to pass various solar systems to get here.

There is only one resouce that you'll find on earth that you'll either not find elsewhere in the solar system, or if you do find it there will be very limited amounts. That is living things and biomass.

Well, OK, you will find lots of free oxygen here as well. But that is not worth the effort and resouces to come here to get it. The amount of energy needed to come here would probably be several factors higher than finding CO2 and then stripping the carbon.
From media reference, they're tend to be looking for gold, which is kind of rare, because in theory it is only produced in supernovas. Other rare metals are also plausible candidates.
 
Old 08-31-2013, 06:37 AM   #25
cascade9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
From media reference, they're tend to be looking for gold, which is kind of rare, because in theory it is only produced in supernovas. Other rare metals are also plausible candidates.
There is a few theories around about how gold is formed.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/scienc...215848391.html

As far as aliens coming to earth to mine gold goes, I doubt it.

Quote:
"The extreme temperature at which the Earth's core formed more than four billion years ago would have completely stripped any precious metals from the rocky crust and deposited them in the core," says James Brenan of the Department of Geology at the University of Toronto and co-author of the study published in Nature Geoscience on October 18.

"So, the next question is why are there detectable, even mineable, concentrations of precious metals such as platinum and rhodium in the rock portion of the Earth today? Our results indicate that they could not have ended up there by any known internal process, and instead must have been added back, likely by a 'rain' of extraterrestrial debris, such as comets and meteorites."
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1018141608.htm

Quote:
"A single 500-meter LL chondrite has more platinum on it than has been mined in the history of humanity,"
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/ther...oids-1C8392355

Its not certain exactly how much gold and other rare metals are in asteroids..but I'd doubt that the earth would be a better source than asteroids in our solar system.

To go further, its quite possible that some other solar systems have much larger amounts of gold and other rare elements than our system.

Elements are everywhere in the universe, and they are (as far as we know) the same everywhere. We dont know how common life is, and its almost certain that life will have far greater diversity than boring elements.
 
Old 08-31-2013, 08:16 AM   #26
baldy3105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cascade9 View Post
That is similar to someone at 50,000+ years ago thinking that there is no way that people will ever figure out how to cross major oceans.

We have no idea what sort of space travelling technologies might be possible.

...

Who knows what value biomass and genetic material is 'worth' to alien cultures and technologies?
Indeed who knows, maybe the nearest aliens live on earth in another dimension and can step though to ours using a small device powered by the equivalent of a 9v battery - it's all pure speculation.

However, given the sheer scale of the universe two things are almost certain. Life almost certainly exists in other places, biomass will be massively more prevalent than intelligent life and that intelligent life is unlikely to ever discover us.
 
Old 08-31-2013, 03:40 PM   #27
netcrawl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cascade9 View Post
That is similar to someone at 50,000+ years ago thinking that there is no way that people will ever figure out how to cross major oceans.

We have no idea what sort of space travelling technologies might be possible.
Even 50,000+ years ago, and however risky it might have been, floating across a body of water to the next island would hardly entail the same sort of obstacles that traveling many light years to another solar system would.
 
Old 08-31-2013, 06:08 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
Or they have a totally different morality than ours and just get from our planet what they want. DOn't make the mistake to humanize possible aliens, they are most likely not humans or even humanoid, this is not Star Trek.
Funny you mentioned TV material because this is not Mars attacks either.
 
Old 09-01-2013, 06:28 AM   #29
cascade9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baldy3105 View Post
Indeed who knows, maybe the nearest aliens live on earth in another dimension and can step though to ours using a small device powered by the equivalent of a 9v battery - it's all pure speculation.

However, given the sheer scale of the universe two things are almost certain. Life almost certainly exists in other places, biomass will be massively more prevalent than intelligent life and that intelligent life is unlikely to ever discover us.
Thats 3 things (lief exists elsewhere, biomass is more common than sentience, sentinent life is unlikely to find us).

I agree on 1 + 2, but not 3.

Its possible that other sentinent life wont discover us. However, there are a lot of assumptions in that point of view. I dont think we have enough data either way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by netcrawl View Post
Even 50,000+ years ago, and however risky it might have been, floating across a body of water to the next island would hardly entail the same sort of obstacles that traveling many light years to another solar system would.
Are you sure about that?

I didnt say 'island hop' for a good reason. That in many situations can be achived with limited expereince and knowledge in very primitive craft (which is how people got to australia at least 40,000 years ago).

To make a proper ocean going vessel and then to cross an ocean requires a much higher technical skill level. The knowledge required is also much higher (requires at least basic navigation, reliable water and food storage).

IMO the diference between a coast hugging raft that never leaves sight of land of vs ocean going vessel is at least possibly comprable to the difference bwetween a chemical rocket/shuttle that barely leaves LEO and a vessel capable of interstella journeys.
 
Old 09-01-2013, 10:36 AM   #30
netcrawl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cascade9 View Post
Are you sure about that?

I didnt say 'island hop' for a good reason. That in many situations can be achived with limited expereince and knowledge in very primitive craft (which is how people got to australia at least 40,000 years ago).

To make a proper ocean going vessel and then to cross an ocean requires a much higher technical skill level. The knowledge required is also much higher (requires at least basic navigation, reliable water and food storage).

IMO the diference between a coast hugging raft that never leaves sight of land of vs ocean going vessel is at least possibly comprable to the difference bwetween a chemical rocket/shuttle that barely leaves LEO and a vessel capable of interstella journeys.
At least as sure as you are.

I worded my response specifically as counter-point. Ancient humans possessed the technology to make ocean voyages, even to land masses not visible beyond the horizon. It may have been risky and/or foolhardy, but there was some remote chance of finding land and surviving the journey.

IMO, traveling to any other solar system using any available modern technologies, or any that may be developed in the foreseeable future, is simply not feasible. In another 50,000+ years? Maybe, but that, as has been pointed out, is merely speculation. I hold no faith that the human species will still exist. But that is another topic entirely.
 
  


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