Because Shiny Things Are Fun - The New New Windows v Linux Thread

I know everyone's focused on Barney right now, but I just found something out.

On my 2 year old laptop I have an Intel Celeron Processor (The one made in June something of 2008) and last night I finally decided to tear it apart. My reasoning was, that I am going to buy a new laptop soon (I want a 64 bit system ) and lo and behold, my celeron processor has 2 cores on the chip itself. I applied several software tests on it in Linux (mostly just profiling and etc.) then I ran a full diagnostic on it and turns out that the second core was never used in any of it. So I looked over it through a magnifying glass and found a pin that was blocking a section from passing anything to this other core. I pulled the pin out and popped my processor in my laptop. Windows refused to boot at first except into Safe Mode because of a hardware change. It was there that my PC was re-evaluated and while previously I had a 3.5 out of 5.0 according to Vista, I know have a 4.1/5.0 thus Aero now was enabled. I then tried something crazy, I popped in the Arch64 net-install disk and VIOLA!!! It loaded and installed Arch64 successfully. Thus, I converted what was a 32 bit processor into a now 64 bit processor by (carefully) removing a pin. After doing research it seems other people found this out too and am wondering to myself, if Intel created this cheap of a 64bit processor, why didn't they market it like that and/or use this as their low-end 64 bit processor? It's all very fishy to me and I really don't know what to make of it. Hmmm...any ideas guys?

Originally Posted by soppy Hmmm...any ideas guys?

Yes, open a new thread for this, has nothing to do with Windows vs Linux. If you open a new thread, please post the exact type of your processor, best woud be the sSPEC-number (looks like SL9A3 or something), so that we can have a look at this.

Originally Posted by TobiSGD Yes, open a new thread for this, has nothing to do with Windows vs Linux. If you open a new thread, please post the exact type of your processor, best woud be the sSPEC-number (looks like SL9A3 or something), so that we can have a look at this.

I figured this had something to do with Vendor lock-out. Because I re-soldered the pin on just now, and both cores are used in Vista. o_O But with Linux it refuses to see that they are both there. Hmm...I'll see about a new thread. Disregard me then.

Originally Posted by soppy I figured this had something to do with Vendor lock-out. Because I re-soldered the pin on just now, and both cores are used in Vista. o_O But with Linux it refuses to see that they are both there. Hmm...I'll see about a new thread. Disregard me then.

I don't see how this has to do with vendor-lockout. Is there even such a thing? Wouldn't they try to lock you in?

I would assume that it the same thing that AMD does. If a multi-core processor has a malfunction on one of his cores, the core is locked and the processor is sold as cheaper CPU with less cores. This way they make money out of things that would normally go to the trash-can. I also would assume that this business-practice will make things cheaper, just because the yield-rate is higher.

Here's my way of putting down proprietary software. Read the "No Copyright" symbol:

c⃠

Originally Posted by Kenny_Strawn Here's my way of putting down proprietary software. Read the "No Copyright" symbol: c⃠

That's offtopic, since both Linux and Windows can run OSS/proprietary software.

If you dislike proprietary software and/or can't understand its benefits/strong points, then you should come up with scheme that will make your favorite opensource software profitable. The "greedy corporations" you seem to dislike very much are actually running the economy, so any idea that brings profit should be adapted fairly quickly. Or provide alternative linux product, cheaper and superior to windows.

Coming up with "no copyright" symbols and shouting about linux on forums is a waste of time - it is going to change nothing (well, it might scare a few people away from linux, though).

Before promoting linux/opensource, I'd recommend to (finish school/university, since you talk about "teachers",) get a few years of experience in software development on both platforms, and try to create a profitable product based on opensource software. This way you'll meet with the flaws of both operating systems, and encounter fundamental problems with GPL philosophy. Also, it is advised to actually support your arguments when you say something.

Originally Posted by Kenny_Strawn Read the "No Copyright" symbol:

That doesn't even render properly in my browser...

Originally Posted by SigTerm Before promoting linux/opensource, I'd recommend to (finish school/university, since you talk about "teachers",) get a few years of experience in software development on both platforms, and try to create a profitable product based on opensource software. This way you'll meet with the flaws of both operating systems, and encounter fundamental problems with GPL philosophy. Also, it is advised to actually support your arguments when you say something.

So basically this translates roughly to "get a real job/life before thinking about even using (let alone promoting) Linux/FOSS", right? Well, thanks for quite blatantly telling us what to do. () So I guess I should maybe think about wiping the Arch install on the desktop I'm posting this from, then? It does still have XP on it (which I do still use on occasion)... Speaking of which, I must be in for it big time with my laptop, because I completely overwrote the copy of Windows 7 that came pre-installed on it (i.e. Linux is the only OS on it), and I'm only 19. Shock and horror!

I'll admit Kenny tends to be overzealous with his "FOSS promotion", but this, to me, is outright insulting.

[/rant]

I really hate to come off as sounding harsh, but seriously, posts like this bug the hell out of me.

Now I suppose I'll await the replies bashing this post and supporting SigTerm's...

Originally Posted by SigTerm That's offtopic, since both Linux and Windows can run OSS/proprietary software. If you dislike proprietary software and/or can't understand its benefits/strong points, then you should come up with scheme that will make your favorite opensource software profitable. The "greedy corporations" you seem to dislike very much are actually running the economy, so any idea that brings profit should be adapted fairly quickly. Or provide alternative linux product, cheaper and superior to windows. Coming up with "no copyright" symbols and shouting about linux on forums is a waste of time - it is going to change nothing (well, it might scare a few people away from linux, though). Before promoting linux/opensource, I'd recommend to (finish school/university, since you talk about "teachers",) get a few years of experience in software development on both platforms, and try to create a profitable product based on opensource software. This way you'll meet with the flaws of both operating systems, and encounter fundamental problems with GPL philosophy. Also, it is advised to actually support your arguments when you say something.

What about me? I'm 43. I worked on puters for several years and changed careers when windows 3.1 came out. I got so tired of sitting there changing floppies. So, let's check off your list. I'm out of school. I've had some jobs including computer related ones. I run Linux and ONLY Linux here. I'm familiar with both windows and Linux and in my opinion, Linux is far better. I wouldn't use windows if it was free. Actually, I wouldn't use windows if they were paying me to use it.

I have a idea tho. Read your post and take you own advice. Neat huh?

Originally Posted by MrCode So basically this translates roughly to "get a real job/life before thinking about even using (let alone promoting) Linux/FOSS", right?

Wrong.

It means "get some experience with both linux/windows, do some programming and find out about weaknesses of both systems before making a one-sided argument". I respect a user's decision to use whatever operating system the user finds the best, no matter what is the system, if the user made a rational decision based on his/her preferences (i.e. used brain, not blind faith). However, I hate one-sided arguments in linux defense, and "zealous" linux fans tend to forget to mention critical parts. I'm aware that a linux newbie gets "high" after realizing how much power is available for free (and with source code access) from linux console, and starts trying to convert everybody until he runs into first problem 6..12 months later, but one-sided arguments are still annoying.

For example, they("zealots") may forget to mention that ubuntu may fail to install on brand new laptop simply because kernel doesn't support it yet, they may to forget to mention all the trouble associated with USB devices (I once purchased a "supported" cheap web-cam, which stopped working with new kernel/software update), there's printer configurations, there's IP tables, tons of manuals that needs to be read, and a lot of stuff under GUI layer that may break. Not to mention that it is possible to nuke the MBR accidentally during the installation.
Whoever says "linux is the best" clearly never experienced problem with USB devices (scanners, usb cams, graphic tablets), and never tried to incorporate existing routine from GPL software into commercial code.
"Zealots" tend to provide one-sided arguments - "linux is good, FOSS is the only right way". Great. As a result of such statements, there will be upset users in the forums later, saying something like "I was lured into installing this distro by promises of free windows replacement, now I can't boot anything, help". So, nobody is going to benefit from promoting linux like this. Heck, I even saw an adult programmer who managed to nuke his vista partition due to some kind of rare linux ntfs driver glitch I never experienced myself. It makes sense to keep in mind that all GPL software comes "AS IS, without warranty of any kind".

Originally Posted by MrCode Well, thanks for quite blatantly telling us what to do. (:rolleyes:)

You should reread original post. It says "Before promoting linux/opensource, I'd recommend to (...) get a few years of experience in software development on both platforms"

Originally Posted by MrCode So I guess I should maybe think about wiping the Arch install on the desktop I'm posting this from, then? It does still have XP on it (which I do still use on occasion)... Speaking of which, I must be in for it big time with my laptop, because I completely overwrote the copy of Windows 7 that came pre-installed on it (i.e. Linux is the only OS on it), and I'm only 19. :eek:Shock and horror!:eek:

In my opinion, you skipped the word, misinterpreted my post/intentions, took it all personally and are currently overreacting. I'd recommend to reread original post, think and post a rational reply if you still feel like it.

Originally Posted by dalek What about me? I'm 43. I worked on puters for several years and changed careers when windows 3.1 came out. I got so tired of sitting there changing floppies. So, let's check off your list. I'm out of school. I've had some jobs including computer related ones. I run Linux and ONLY Linux here. I'm familiar with both windows and Linux and in my opinion, Linux is far better. I wouldn't use windows if it was free. Actually, I wouldn't use windows if they were paying me to use it.

Since you said "in my opinion, Linux is far better", I have no quarrel with you.

Originally Posted by dalek I have a idea tho. Read your post and take you own advice. Neat huh? :Pengy:

Finished school long time ago, doing cross-platform Qt-based development on windows platform as my job. Spent few years with slackware until I got sick of update scheme, although learning distro was useful for me as a programmer. Still wouldn't recommend linux to everybody(except a good programmers) as a result of maintaining parent's linux machine for year (until I gave up and replaced contents with WinXP). So, which part of my own advice should I take? I already know that for a normal user, both windows and linux are too far from perfect.

Originally Posted by SigTerm Massive blah blah.

We are not responsible for other users.

Originally Posted by leopard We are not responsible for other users.

What has this to do with the post from SigTerm? I can understand his opinion, and it makes sense to me.

Originally Posted by SigTerm ..."get some experience with both linux/windows, do some programming and find out about weaknesses of both systems before making a one-sided argument". Still wouldn't recommend linux to everybody(except a good programmers)...

What about non-programmers?

lol yeah... if we'd listen his advice(SigTerm).... maybe half or more (certainly) of this forum would be gone, since they're not programmers (like me) and use windows forever (since i don't think *anyone* would learn programming *only* to run linux...)

Originally Posted by mudangel What about non-programmers?

It is your machine, your property, so you use whatever you want on it and get consequences of your decision.

The strong points of linux are command-line tools and certain very specific network software. System administrator or programmer will benefit the most from that. However, I do not remember a single linux-specific piece of software (unrelated to programming), which wasn't ported to other platform, and is attractive enough to make a non-programmer switch platforms (at least it wouldn't attract me if I were a non-developer). The only thing worth mentioning is greater DE configurability (KDE, in particular) and virtual desktop concept, but that is effectively countered by overall lower quality of GUI software on linux platform, and it is possible to make alternative desktop software on windows platform (i.e. it is possible that there is a proprietary windows software that provides multiple desktop and better configurability on windows platform). KDE has some unique software as part of suite, but it mostly feels like an unfinished clone/mockup, and it isn't really useful (KAsteroids? Come on...). Aside that major "linux" software tends to be cross-platform, so you don't have to use linux for it (there is a gcc port, command line tools port, gnu make port, git port, audacity port, lilypond port, openoffice.org port, jedit is cross-platform, firefox/opera are crossplatform, blender is cross-platform and so on). On other hand, windows platform has a lot of high-grade expensive products that are meant to be windows only (i.e. some of them may work through wine, but there is normally a little reason to do that) or have a Mac OS port. There is photoshop, 3dsmax, autocad, zbrush, visual studio, probably a thousand of proprietary windows games, steam, specific accounting/financial software, and so on. As a result the only attractive point of linux (from non-developer's perspective) may be a lower OS price, which is effectively countered by higher maintenance cost on linux system (you'll need to invest more time/effort to configure system the way you want). Commercial software normally supports Max and/or Windows, and that's it. This is probably caused by large number of linux distributions and package management schemes.
As a result I don't see a reason for a non-developer to use linux. Still, it is your time, your life, and your decisions, so you can do whatever you want (and get consequences later).

Development/programming experience I mentioned before needed to get better understanding of the both system, so you won't blindly promote everything that is FOSS (if it is opensource, doesn't mean it is a good product - there is a lot of junk software and dead projects), and won't say things like "NT is a DOS clone" (unless you want to make somebody die from laughter). Windows platform is extremely attractive for proprietary software development because of backward compatibility (which is not perfect, but still exists) and fixed API (if I remember correctly, normally newer functions are being added in new windows version, but older API still functions). Also, windows system is better for learning binary reverse-engineering (there are lawful uses for that). Deployment of software product is pretty much streamlined on windows platform, you know what to expect from it, etc. Although I dislike .NET, even .NET framework bloat has benefits - from my experience, software that uses .NET tends to be small (compared to, say compiled Qt 4-based program) and easy to distribute. Those are strong points for windows platform, but they are frequently overlooked by people that are unfamiliar with software development, which is why I recommend having development/programming experience.

Originally Posted by SigTerm Since you said "in my opinion, Linux is far better", I have no quarrel with you. Finished school long time ago, doing cross-platform Qt-based development on windows platform as my job. Spent few years with slackware until I got sick of update scheme, although learning distro was useful for me as a programmer. Still wouldn't recommend linux to everybody(except a good programmers) as a result of maintaining parent's linux machine for year (until I gave up and replaced contents with WinXP). So, which part of my own advice should I take? I already know that for a normal user, both windows and linux are too far from perfect.

It seems to me that you are saying that a person that is not a programmer shouldn't use Linux. To use your "opinion", then a programmer is the only person that should use windows too. If you use your own advice, most people can't use a computer at all.

To a degree, I could see some sense to this. If a person is going to use a computer and it be connected to the web, they should at least keep their computer secure. For windows, they should have a working and up to date anti-virus installed and the OS updates installed. That not only protects themselves but prevents the spread of viruses to others. Thing is, computers are not like cars and neither is the OS. You don't have to have training or some Government approval to use one. Think about this. If it was illegal to spread viruses, a lot of windows users would be in jail. I'm not saying it should be that way but there are a LOT of windows users that couldn't find their butt with a map, mirror and both hands. At least with Linux, which is more secure by default, the user tends to know more about their computer.

My opinion, there are a lot of people out there that are computer idiots and they run windows. Most Linux users have a better understanding of computers. I use Gentoo here. You can't install Gentoo if you are not familiar with your system which is why I build my own. I think some people should be forced to install their own OS and build their own puter if for no other reason than to help them understand what they are using. Yea, I'm one of those that think a woman should be able to raise the hood and change their own oil too. It's not that they have to do it but so that they understand the consequences of that light that comes on when there is no oil left in the engine. I have a friend that does that. The oil light comes on and she thinks she can drive with it on for miles. This is after she had one engine to mess up on her. If a person owns a puter, keeping it secure is their responsibility and most could care less even if it hurts themselves much less someone else.

Some of the above is not just opinions but are actual facts.