After trying them all over the years and after recent problems with Ubuntu (Kubuntu) Eggy and Feisty (Random freeze and reboots, software crash, instability, etc...) I switched to Mepis 6.5 and I must say...few...what a great OS.

Rock solid stable!

It's based on ubuntu edgy now but it is far from a clone. It is it's own thing.

Let's skip the details by saying it took the best from Ubuntu and Debian and made something much faster,stabler, compatible and sturdy out of the box.

It uses Synaptic by default for managing package installation instead of Adept, which is muck better in my opinion and the repositories are already setup for the most part.

It's not perfect. The installer needs a bit more polishing, but overall. One big flaw I noticed is that you can't choose different /home partition than on the disk you install on.

It also needs an simple one click way to download and install non-free media codecs. For advance users like me it's not an issue, but for most people it is, and it's what makes them keep Winblows.

Besides that Amarok has a bug that won't let it playback on my setup that I didn't get to fix yet. (Edit: Amarok works fine after a reboot. I had installed many packaged without restarting and that often leads to software problems. My bad.)

Just in case anyone wants to refer to any of this, I am putting it in a numbered list so you don't have fill your reply w/ quotes. Feel free to just refer to the #.

1. From the title, I was not expecting such a thoughtful post. not that there was anything wrong w/ your title, it's just that most folks don't post thoughtfully on the subject. My compliments.
   
   
2. I'm surprised & pleased you find it so stable, other posts in this forum have made stability complaints.
   
   
3. In case you, & any readers, don't know the history, MEPIS is older than Ubuntu by about 2 years & has only been using the Ubuntu repositories for about 1 year. It has always been its own thing & never a clone. Although the MEPIS web site will uses term "based on" in describing the relationship between the 2 distros, I think it is a simplistic misnomer. Both MEPIS & the Ubuntu family are based on Debian -- not only do they start from the repositories, but they use Debian tools, structures, & ideas as the underpinnings of the distros. They then change the things they think could be made better to implement their ideas of what an OS should look like. In this sense, MEPIS is not "based on" Ubuntu -- it only uses its repositories.
   
   Somewhere, I just spent roughly an hour w/ Google trying to find it -- w/o success, I read an statement from Warren explaining the mix of packages in 6.0 or 6.5 -- mostly Ubuntu w/ some Debian & even a little special MEPIS thrown in. Warren & team did not get out the package making business entirely. I verified this by checking the /etc/apt/sources.list in my 6.0 installation. I won't post it to save space; besides, I assume you have 1 of your own to look at if you're interested.
   
   
4. I just installed & opened adept & I have to agree, it looks much better than Synaptic. Of course, to me even aptitude looks than Synaptic: I have never been able to get past the tiny grey on black details screen it presents. To my presbyopic eyes Synaptic is unreadable & therefore useless. That may sound harsh, but what's the point of presenting output that your user can't read? If this Synaptic screen's colors & font were configurable, it would be a different story.
   
   KPackage, my favorite so far, is black on real white & at least a crucial half point larger in font size. As a result, I can read KPackage's output & therefore I use it. One of my standard "first fixes" to a new install is replace any Synaptic kicker icon w/ KPackage. Of course I use KDE exclusively, so learning how to install & run it under Gnome isn't an issue.
   
   Well, Adept suffers from the same problem as Synaptic -- I can't read all the "Details" info. presented w/o eyestrain. There isn't even a "Configure Adept" menu choice, let alone 1 that changes font size. The Q is, is the wonderful interface worth temporarily changing the screen resolution???
   
   
5. I am surprised you criticize the polish of the installer. In my book, it's the best I've seen & has been since ver. 2004.04. What don't you like?
   
   
6. Now the inability to set /home up on a different HD is a potential flaw I can second. However, I suspect there is no way to fix that w/o adding bad complexity to the installer.
   
   
7. Personally, I don't (yet) care about non-free codecs, so i am unsure if the following is the right Q: Doesn't advantix take care of that? Or is it not as simple to use as you would like?

What's advantix? I would like to install all the codecex i can the easy way, especially the the non free and the free ones.

Oops, sorry, brain fart -- I meant Automatix.

See: http://www.mepis.org/node/12165#comment-45385

I like synaptic because it doesn't feel like windows like Automatix and as well as being porterd to the vast majority of distributions including Fedora, which was a shock to me.

archtoad6, concerning your comment #4, I think you misread my post. What I meant is I prefer Synaptic to Adept. I have had problems with Adept in the past.

But....But...I always use it along with Kpackage also because one does for me the things the other does not.

As for the installer, well if you have, like me, tried many distribution (And I mean many!) You will find most installers let you configure your own partitions the way you like. It's not complex at all. In fact Mepis is the only one I think of that has this missing feature.

I had to relocate my /home partition by hand after install. Unacceptable. It has to be corrected.Even if it's the only flaw with it.

As for non-free codecs, we might not like them, but they are necessary on the WWW/tech world whether we like it or not. Let's just rejoice that many codecs are nowadays open source, and remember that not all of us are computer litterate enough to care about these liscense issues. Most people just like their music and videos to play when they click on them.

Linux can't live in a bubble if it wants to gain the majority of users it deserves.

Nevertheless, Linux is growing at the speed of light these last 3 years and Mepis is one example to follow.

Steel_J, Again, thank you for starting such an interesting discussion.

Package Managers
Yes, I must have mis-read your post. 3 Q's occur to me:

1. Don't all 3 rely on /etc/apt/sources.list for repository info.? How can 1 be better set up than another?
2. What problems have you had w/ Adept? What should I be warned about before I start exploring it? So far, I only see the font size issue.
3. I know what I like about KPackage, what do find that Synaptic does better for you?

Installers
Because I have been running a weekly Linux workshop here in Houston for the last 3 years, I have used or seen a goodly # of installers also. My observation is that any (e.g. RH, FC, Mand*, SuSE?) that allow putting /home wherever you want are also more complex than the MEPIS installer. I would love to see some counter examples.

Something that the MEPIS installer has that memory says other simple (i.e. Thiz & Linspire) ones do not, is the choice to put GRUB in the PBR of the root (/) partition, rather than automatically use the MBR & possibly trash another install.

Since the GRUB location choice is handled w/o making the installer too complex, I don't see why the /home drive choice can't be dealt w/ also. Have you thought of filing a bug report w/ MEPIS?

Non-free codecs
For my future reference, how do you go about getting yours?

Linux & MEPIS growth
I have to agree. But RMS is right about at least 1 thing, this is about freedom, & we must not compromise that (insert obligatory Ben Franklin reference here).

Something that MEPIS continues to get right is the basic security set up: 2 accounts, w/ 2 passwords. Yes, I have read both the Linspire & Ubuntu explanations for why they do things the way they do, & I don't buy either 1. Both strike as worthy of P. T. Barnum or Bill Gates -- presuming that the average user can't be taught basic security or remember 2 good passwords.

I recently did a 6.0 install & was interested that the Pager & the extra desktops (Virtual Displays) were missing. In fact I was slightly shocked, but on reflection decided it was "A Good Thing (tm)", because few who like VD's will settle for 2, the former MEPIS default, & any may confuse someone who doesn't already use them. What is the default in 6.5?


Ben Franklin
To find the wide variety of the ways he is quoted, put this:
"Ben Franklin" freedom safety
into Google.

BTW, I suspect "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." is the most authentic.

Concerning installers:

I don't necessarily want a more complex installer for Mepis but only one added button at the buttom that says custom partitionning. That'all. The advance user could then forgo the basic install.

Suse, Mandriva, Fedora, Ubuntu installers all have such a feature. Altough some do have less ease of use than the MEPIS installer.

I don't see this as a bug but rather as a choice from the creator.


Concerning Package managers:

Yes, all 3 rely on /etc/apt/sources.list (apt-get),but Synaptic is fast and reliable. i.e It does not give me dependencies errors and others as much as adept who often ouptputed error messages upon installing very basic and simple packages on my system.

I personnaly favor the GUI of Synaptics. But it is a personnal choice. The search functions are more intuitive and efficient. Adding repo's is quite easy and you can set how much verbose output you want for installations.

As for Kpackage it let's you install standalone packages who are not in repo's very easily. You just right click on the .deb and there you go. If a dependency is not met the error message are clear and tell you what to install.

Synaptic and Adept as far as I know don't let you install from anything else but repositories in this simple way.

For me Kpackage is a complement to Synaptics.

Concerning non-free codecs:

I have a reminder list (Libdvdcss, libmad, realplayer, w32codecs, libxine, lame, toolame,a52dec, etc...) and depending on the distro I Google the non-free repositories and add them to my package manager. Some I have on my HD to install standalone but I prefer to keep thing centralized to the installer, as it is one major flaw of Linux in my opinion; software installations. The past 2 years this flaw is being corrected more and more and will soon a thing of the past

Concerning Linux & MEPIS growth:

I totally agree that root and user must remain. That is one of the things of Ubuntu, Linspire, Freespire I detest. It tends to go too much in the way of a Windows (Microsoft) security mindframe; Which is equivalent to swiss cheese

For the pager and Virtual displays, the default is the same in 6.5 and personnaly I don't use them so I always removed them in the past. I have two 19 inch screen and I manage, hahaha!

I don't think many users have the conscious mind to exploit them very often either. Altough they can be useful in some context, i.e like when you need to work on a laptop an open many apps.

On a personal note I love Quick Browsers and Quick Launchers add-ons a lot for my task bar.

Sorry to take so long to post this, I spent all day yesterday "fighting" w/ 2 Tyan "Thunder K7 (S2462)" mobos. Yes, they are old; but, when running, will be close to 3x better than my current desktop box. But that is a story for another thread.

Again, & to think I almost didn't look at this thread.

As usual, I have added comments for the benefit of lurkers & future readers who may not have our knowledge or experience, please do not be offended.


Installers
We are in full agreement: Warren "should" add a button to give this functionality.

While I have never missed having this, I can see its utility.


Package Managers
I would not / do not question your personal experience, but it is my understanding that dependency resolution is part of the package (to a lesser extent the repository) & not the manager. I don't see how 2 different PM's could give different results on the same system. We have a real live Debian developer who belongs to HLUG, I'll try to remember to ask him about this.

We already know I like KPackage better , but about a month ago, I showed it to a Synaptic user & he converted almost immediately. Even if Synaptic were to "fix" my perceived font/color bug, I'm probably too used to KPackage to bother to switch. I will keep in mind your comments about search functionality.

The availability of 7 other package types in KPackage (see Settings -> Configure KPackage), starting w/ .deb, is a major plus for me.


Non-Free Codecs
I'm sure you know that the situation is a result of a GNU/Linux [political | philosophical | religious] stand against closed software, drivers, formats, & codecs. I think, as someone who has yet to be inconvenienced by this, that the way things are now is close to ideal:

• Distros can remain "pure".
• Those who want them can get the codecs they need.
• Anyone using non-free codecs gets the philosophical point made to them in a fairly mild way.

(Think about how it would be if RMS had his way. )


Linux & MEPIS Growth
It's so nice to preach to the choir^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H find someone who agrees about the Linspire/Ubuntu approach, especially the $wi$$ chee$e equivalency. I always knew what was wrong w/ Linspire; but w/ Ubuntu, it started out as a gut level mistrust & annoyance at the inconveniences caused by being different. I have only recently been able to conceptualize my objections & verbalize them in a reasoned way.

I find it interesting that an experienced user would have no use for VD's (Virtual Desktops, aka Workspaces). To me, they are a logical extension of tabbing & windowing. Just goes to show that personal taste is not related to experience level.

From almost the time of my discovery of VD's, I have used 8 (2 rows of 4), shortly I am going to try 12 (3 rows of 4). For me, each is a place to isolate a single task. Perhaps I should note, that to make them useful, I have configure KDE to display only the window buttons for the current VD in the taskbar (uncheck the "Show windows from all desktops" box). And to compensate for that, I check the "Show window list button" box. That way I can still access a full list of all open windows, but w/o cluttering my taskbar. (For the record, both boxes are under "Desktop | Taskbar" in the Control Center.)

I recently replaced my 19" (max 1024x768 w/ comfort) CRT w/ a 20" high aspect flat panel (max 1680x1050 -- comfortable). Even w/ the added real estate, I don't think my use of VD's will change, because I use them to compartmentalize tasks.

Finally, I already love & use Quick Launchers. Now, because of your comment, I am about to investigate/"discover" Quick Browsers; &, I suspect, fall in love w/ them too.

I've always felt that Warren does a great job with Mepis. I always keep one of his LiveCDs in my software 'toolkit' and it's something I often recommend to people wanting to try out Linux for the first time.

Package Managers

I agree that my opinion is based on personal experience and I looke at Adept a bit in the last couple of days and it looks like it works pretty good on Mepis. My problem probably stemmed from my other distro.

I just prefer Synpatics interface.

As for two frontend based on the same PM system working more or less better than the other, if you are like me you surely can remember one time or another where using apt-get from the command line had better result than from either kind of GUI software...and for no apparent reason. It just is.

Non-Free Codecs

I tooootally follow your position on Digital right Management and free software philosophy. But I could see a middle ground where a distro could give easy to follow instructions for newbies on installing repositories for non GPL software. Feisty Fawn I think as something along these lines if I remember correctly.

On a final note , your argument on virtual desktops is convincing. I never had the reflex to use them (probably damage caused by my long ago years as a Windows user) But I will look into getting myself a new habit because they can be nothing but more productive.

I keep a Live CD --- or several --- at least one, but often two or three - releases handy and installed on different partitions, and the most important criteria of all - I use it regularly as my default home desktop system.

I really like it because I can immediately use it. When I have the time, the inclination, or the need, I can easily modify it, but to just use the basics, it doesn't need any modifications at all - it just works. That right there is a huge accomplishment.

I usually do play with fonts, adjusting them to taste, and I add a few tools, such as additional text editors that I enjoy using.

I also like this software well enough that I have purchased it a couple of times - most recently the 6.5 release.

Installers
After my last post, it occurred to me that MEPIS doesn't allow separate /boot, /var, /tmp, etc. (excuse the pun, it was irresistible) partitions. I wonder if this could be accommodated the same way? BTW, have you / are you going to submit the suggestion to Warren?


Package Managers
So, we continue agree to disagree on the merits of Synaptics vs. KPackage.

The only difference I have noticed using apt-get from the CLI is speed, & I assumed that is because I use an old slow (1GHz, 515MB) box that always has too many windows open.


Non-Free Codecs

• Have you tried Automatix?
• Does it work in MEPIS as it does in Ubuntu?
• Does it give that better "middle ground" you are looking for?

Automatix Notes & Links
I did a Google Linux on "automatix" and the 1st page was:
http://www.linux.com/print.pl?sid=06/03/12/209257
actually it was:
http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=06/03/12/209257
but who wants to look at the ads? IAC, the article is well written & interesting, but way out of date -- especially the links.

1. discussion -- interesting short rant.
   • 1 good link: Wrong. Automatix be damned
   • 1 bad: To install Automatix (same as #3 below)
2. Automatix -- the only good one in the bunch
3. Automatix tutorial -- broken, long gone, don't bother
4. ibiblio.org -- non-specific, site home, too general, IMO useless

beerorkid.com (mentioned, but not linked to): Don't bother -- no longer hosts the Automatix repo. Besides, the site does not display properly on Konq. 3.3.2

The real home of Automatix is here.

An introduction to Automatix from New Linux User (April 18th, 2007) is short & sweet and points to Install Popular Applications in Ubuntu Feisty Fawn Using Automatix2 at Only Ubuntu Linux (15 April 2007). This last 1 has screen shots & may be the best of the lot.

Ubuntu Summary:
#2 above is closed, but points to
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=177646 for Automatix 6.1 &
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=90797 for "remove softwares installed by automatix"

Also look at RestrictedFormats in Ubuntu Documentation.

After reading some part of this, I'll probably will recommend mepis instead of ubuntu for first time users.

Now see...Goes to show a good discussion had positive impact and learning.