Sorry about the massive post. Started to post this in Networking but... it grew.

I'm clueless about DSL connections and not much better about Linux but my ideal experiment would be to surf the web on DSL through Mozilla on Debian. I checked out BellSouth's FastAccess webpage and didn't see anything about Linux, so gave them a call. (One argument in their favor is that they do the local phone service and I can get in touch with them.) After checking with someone else, the guy assured me that it would work with RedHat 8.0 but that they wouldn't be able to provide technical support because they don't understand Linux. Why it should be RedHat specifically, I don't know - but I'm not getting RedHat. I'm hoping that if it would work with them, it'd work with the latest Debian - or some other. So I asked what kind of modem they provided and he said a Westell Wirespeed ADSL modem. I checked out Westell's site and it says it has 'PPPoE' support and explicitly mentions Linux but also says it's 'plug'n'play' and 'software upgradeable', which doesn't sound so good. More detailed specs are:

So it does say 'Linux' and 'Netscape', but that isn't necessarily 'Debian' and 'Mozilla'. And it confuses me - he says I could use USB but recommended ethernet, which is what I think I've heard generally. But the modem page doesn't say anything about USB - does it? I have a Realtek RTL8139 Family PCI Fast Ethernet NIC network adapter. If that's even what I need to know.

He also said something about a Cayman Router, about which I found this:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/22353.html

That doesn't sound so good, either. I wouldn't need a router unless I was part of a LAN, though, would I? This is a solo computer.

I'll be honest - I probably know the DOS command line better than anything else and that not very well - my Windows knowledge is worse, my Linux knowledge worse still, but I really know nothing at all about the net - I just connect to it and think browsers are cool. I'm interested in enjoying the web and you've got to be connected these days, but my technical interest lies in personal computing. The technical aspects of networking freak me out. So I get lost in the sites selling me modems and selling me net services and don't know who to believe. And the impartial technical webpages mystify me. So I'd just love to know if this would actually work. It's an HP 510n; 1.2 gig Celeron; 256 megs SDRAM; 40 gig (37.3) IDE; Windows XP OEM. The other part of my problem is that the XP is NTFS. I've done a lot of hunting on this. Turns out my computer was sold with no recovery disks, but has a 4758 meg hidden 'recovery' partition at the front of the disk (with XP taking up 33,422 megs after - offsets are 32K for Partition 1 OEM and 4769M for Partition 2 Primary). I ordered the recovery CDs and was thinking about blowing that partition out and putting Linux on it, because it's already there and is FAT, besides. Is that crazy or will that work? I can't find any concrete information on what's up with the recovery partition. I believe it just sits there and XP boots up without it, while the contents of the CD will perform the same job it would if absolutely necessary. But for all I know, elements of the boot process are stuck in there and I'd kill my comp without it. I ran diskpart on it and diskpart said, 'Yup, it's there and, no, you can't see it.' Couldn't asign it a drive letter or anything, even booting up in 'safe mode' and couldn't find any other way, either. But I assume Linux would read the drive correctly and happily blow out the partition.

I just so want to get away from Windows and Compuserve and get on Linux and DSL. So that was the plan - get DSL, blow out the partition, download Debian. If that went well, maybe blow out XP altogether or invest in a resizer or a second hard drive. (Another thing - I ran defrag a zillion times and - surprise, surprise - there are 'unmoveable files' at almost the very end of the drive, so resizing would be fun, too.) Any help would be most appreciated.

If the hardware that they're going to be installing provides an ethernet port, I can't imagine you'd have any trouble getting a connection to that hardware working if that particular network adapter is supported by the distribution you plan on using.

When they fellow came in to install the hardware (Netopia) at the house, they knew I was going to be using Linux. The technician merely had to give me the network information (default route, mask, name servers, etc.), I modified a few files under /etc, restarted the network service, and I could ping and do a quick web connection. That was sufficient to demonstrate to the thech that he'd done the installation correctly. Other than that, I haven't needed their technical support people do anything for me other than tell me when a line would be back up (luckily, there have been no outages in at least nine months).

Having the recovery CDs might be nice for recovering Windows. But a disaster for your Linux partition if you ever use them. I've heard some horror stories about people using those #$^%@ things to correct a munged up Windows installation, only to find that the recovery process wiped the entire hard disk -- including the Linux partition -- when it placed Windows back in working order. And they lost what files they'd been using on Windows as well. It should be a crime to call these ``recovery'' CDs. (IMHO, Microsoft doesn't know the first thing about restoring a system following a disk problem. Anyone remember the RECOVER command in DOS? If you do, did you ever use it? Without screwing up your entire hard disk that is?)

If you expect to ever need to use those Windows recovery disks, I'd plan on installing Linux onto a second hard disk. That way if you ever do a Windows recovery, all you should lose is the Grub or LILO boot record. Booting from your floppy or the installation CD (in rescue mode) and reinstalling the boot record should be all you'd need to do to regain access to Linux.

To make things short: You can use Bellsouth DSL fine but make sure you get the ethernet based modem. The Alcatel USB modem is workable but is not really worth the headache... trust me on that!

Do your best to get rid of XP. It is insecure, very buggy and IMO Windows 2000 is better. Just because it looks good dont mean it is.

For a nice comparison on OS's:
http://www.geocities.com/TheJStew/OSbeers.txt
But again... I digress...

Looks good? Yech. I made it look as much like older Windows as I could - well, and throwing in a couple of Linux-flavored things, too. *g*

'Only drinkable from an Apple-brand mug.' *lol* That's why I've never had and never will have a Mac. The description of Win31 beer is classic. Hell, the whole thing was.

It would figure - I've always been way behind on my OS's and the one time I get caught up, it's with XP. With that registration crap, I wish I had gotten Win2K. My last OS was Win98, though, and however much I dislike XP, it's sooo much better than 98. I just want the XP in case I can't install Linux or break it right away - as a backup. If I get to feeling more comfortable, Windows is gone. I've only had one Linux though and, while it went well, it was a '99 distro on a '95 machine. Getting an '03 distro on an '01 machine when I'm actually trying to connect to the net and get CD-RWs working and whatnot could be trickier.

And, rnturn, I know the disks will wipe the drive and set me back to square one but, like I say, that's just in case I trash the hard drive or something - just to try and get me *some* kind of working system back. Like I say, if Linux works and Windows gets trashed, goodbye Windows - I wouldn't use the disks just to recover Windows for its own sake.

Though a second hard drive is a good idea on general principle. I thought about it, but I'm running out of money for all this. *g* I wonder about that regarding hard drives and dsl modems and all - if it works better to have the hardware set up and then install Linux (which I'd think it would) or install Linux and add stuff after.

Okay. So it sounds like I'm giving BellSouth a call tomorrow - later today; whatever - and making sure I get the ethernet modem. I get the network info, I just feed that in to the network set up, hopefully. That's all I need - card/modem info and network info? I think I'm going to have to try to install the hardware myself to save on installation fees. And backup again. I backed up awhile ago, but took too long and have a lot more.

Well, thanks to you both. I feel a bit better about giving it a shot.

Your hard drive sounds similiar to mine, I have to admit, that when this PC arrived the hard drive was partitioned into 3 parts, the main windows XP (NTFS), the recovery part (FAT32 - and only about 2.5 gigs) and the other part (I forget what they had called it) was about 12 gig, but formatted FAT32.


So I just "bit the bullet" and put the SuSE disc's that I had been given in to install, I had already formatted the "12 gig" partition to make sure that it didn't have anything on it that might affect the linux/SuSE installation, and when it asked me, I just told it to use that partition.


I won't bore you with the difficulty that I had with my dsl modem (alcatel speedtouch usb), it would take up too much, but I now use a Solwise SAR110 modem router, which enables me to leave my dsl connection alone and offers a "hardware firewall". This is connected with a netgear ethernet (realtek chipset) card.


As far as the distro is concerned, when I was looking into it, those who seem to be knowledgeable about the subject, seemed to suggest redhat, mandrake or SuSE for the newbie. They do the majority of the installation for you and handle most of the things that could confuse automatically.


The one impression that I got from your original post, was that you have been "baffled by science" from your phone/service provider ?Bell South was it?.


TCP/IP is TCP/IP is TCP/IP. You are the one that sets the parameters for the protocol that you machine puts out, not them. If they offer a dsl service, the only real compatibility problem, is that the modem router or whatever device put's out the correct protocol standard - it's international. There is the point that you raise about one of the sites mentioning PPPoe, well I would be suprised if you could only use PPPoa (sometimes refered to as PPPoatm). Again, you would be selecting the PPPoe when you are setting up your connection.


I use mandrake as a distro, I would suggest that you went for a boxed set to start with and get used to the differences between linux distro's and wind0w$ first. Then, when you're "up and running" with a working dsl connection, partitions that you are happy with, etc, etc, then download the debian and install it over the top of the mandrake (or whatever), or if you have room, you could look into installing it alongside another distro.


Honestly, you don't have to be a "Rocket Scientist" to do this (I'm a truck driver - and you don't have to be over endowed with "smart's" to haul a tractor and semi').


Also, you have definitely come to the right place for answers, LQ seems to be "chock a block" with some really clued up people - as well as a few idiots like me!


If you are really concerned about stuff like partitions, you can always buy a copy of partition magic, or download a copy of "ranish partition manager" from the net, either should do the job. Then do an install. As long as you've got your wind0w$ install intact, you can always post for help with that. If you are overly worried about your router (the cayman one), then follow the advice in the link to the register that you used in your first post, if worst comes to the worst, you could get a different router/modem/whatever (you should be able to get the solwise device or some equivalent your side of the "pond"). However you set up the router, when it comes to sorting the connection, mandrake for example, was "a breeze", I just told it to use a LAN connection, filled out a few boxes with my IP address and put a check mark or two in. The good thing about my modem router was that it is very configuable. I have managed (with help from the instruction book/the solwise forum/the solwise technical staff - not lots of help, just guidance) to set it up so it is completely "stealthed". Which isn't bad considering that what I know about linux etc, modem's, routers and networking could be written on the back of a very small postage stamp.


Hope that some of this may help. good luck with whichever direction you choose.



regards

John

p.s. the bit where I was on about the pppoe and pppoa protocol's, varies from service provider to service provider, it just happens that my ISP uses BT lines & protocols, which in the UK means pppoa, though I have noticed that a lot of other countries use pppoe

Thanks, bigjohn - I'll factor all that in to my thinking (if I can call it 'thinking'), too.

BellSouth may become my ISP - I've only had three before. I'm one of those horrible people who used a computer (sort of) all through the 90s without paying any attention to the net until AOL gave me a free trial. Used it off and on, tried a Lycos banner-ad-supported trial, then ended up with CompuServe which, long before I got to it, was just a less annoying branch of AOL. I've never connected to the net in any other way, nor networked local computers. I never even saw the net until late '98 and wasn't regularly connected until mid-'01. Stick a CD in the drive and click some buttons. So, yeah, pretty clueless. Thanks for some clues. *g*

that sounds a little like me, although I bought my first computer when I got out of the Navy in 96. And just coasted around looking at this and that, thinking I was getting to be quite expert.

Then after I started reading the register (there is also a US version), I started to understand the "underhanded" tactics used by Micr0$0ft, and at the "urging" of my older brother (an IT professional and family red hat bore) looked into linux.

I can assure you that it took me about 1 millisecond after getting linux installed to first utter those immortal words of "What the f*** have I let myself in for?"

I don't normally ask my brother for assistance, because he looses me after about 2 sentences - though he did come over and configure my PC for my adsl service with the SuSE, and after a while I had downloaded and burned the discs for mandrake 8.2 which after lots of stress (not to mention screwing up the SuSE install) managed to install the mandrake and with a s**tload of help from here at LQ and the mandrake users forum managed to configure the adsl connection.

Since then I have bought a boxed set of mandrake 9.0 (and was absolutely stunned to find that the "out of the box support" for my old adsl modem actually worked "out of the box support") I haven't looked back.

I should say, that I have changed from a USB modem to the ethernet modem/router solution, because it saves me a fair bit of hassle swapping between wind0w$ and mandrake, and doesn't have the limitations of USB. Also, because I an not a "hardcore linux nut" the "postage stamp" analogy I used before is pretty accurate, I consider myself a reformed wind0w$ drone/micr0$0ft refusenik, and often end up agreeing with the old adage "that a little bit of knowledge is dangerous". But I am very pleased with mandrake (and linux in general) and find myself using it more and more.

Hopefully in the near future, I won't have to bother booting into wind0w$ for anything except my much played "jellyfish backgammon".

How fast you will learn linux is dictated by your own ability/curiosity and what you actually want to do with it. Personally, I have "plateau'd at the moment, because I find a functional desktop system satisfy's my needs - though I have still to get me damned scanner working yet.

Power to the penguin

regards

John

i have sympatico dsl and they use PPPoe. I run slackware 8.1 with no problems and I used roaring penguin software to setup pppoe and it worked great.

Yeah - my coming to Linux is a large part pro-Linux but probably a larger part anti-Windows and the anti-Windows part probably drove it to begin with. I've played around enough with the Linux I have to think it'd be a permanent switch and, fortunately, I don't do any Windows gaming which seems to be the big thing for hanging onto Windows. (My idea of gaming is running a DOS version of Space Invaders for the novelty of it.) *g*

As far as ability... well, maybe not so much. But as far as curiosity, my interest from the boot process to shell scripts on the one hand, or tinkering with blackbox menus on the other, is pretty high. There's a ton of confusion everywhere but a just as much curiosity until I get beyond the physical boundaries of the computer and then the confusion starts to outweigh the curiosity.

It's cool that you have a knowledgeable brother to help out. I'm in this strange island of computerlessness - I don't know anyone into them and no one in my family will touch one unless their jobs force them to.

And, erikm103, thanks for that link. And good to know your net and Slack get along.