After just updating my system with pacman, I noticed how much unused programs I have.

So I started looking through the Xfce menu and running pacman -Rns on every program I don't need.

Then I found that I had gnome-disk-utility. I couldn't remove it because it was needed by some gnome lib, which was needed by some other gnome lib, which was needed by a CALCULATOR APP!!!

Why should a DESKTOP CALCULATOR depend on a DISK UTILITY!!!??!?! That's why I HATE tightly integrated DEs. The sad part is that you can't avoid them because so many apps depend on their libs.

I also found that even Xfce depended on some programs that I don't need. So I wonder, if there is a really good, decent-looking alternative to a desktop environment?

I tried FVWM, but it is too hard to configure and no matter what I do I think it's ugly. And I haven't found a window manager that has a nice, DE-like taskbar.

Any suggestions?

My favorites are LXDE for a DE and Fluxbox for a WM. I use Fluxbox most of the time and look to LXDE for lightweight programs. Fluxbox has many addons to make it look any way you want. If I want a DE I just log into LXDE.

2 points:

1. A desktop environment is very nice to have because it has a bunch of convenience features. With a simple Window manager you need to put in extra effort to create the features you want. It's a clear choice.

2. I would avoid the temptation to try and streamline Arch by removing things. For me, a real plus for Arch is that it starts with NOTHING---and it never installs something that is not needed. The way to keep Arch lean and mean is to NOT INSTALL THINGS.

But installing things like DEs IS what puts those useless programs on my system!

Also, installing programs that rely on DEs puts really wild, useless dependencies in your system. Take the calculator example in my original post!

As for my original question, I wonder if there is something like a universal "task bar" that uses a good-looking widget toolkit like GTK+ or Qt, and works with any window manager?

That's probably the norm when using a DE on a binary distribution.

I would suggest checking out pacman -Rcns in the future, just make sure you are careful when you are asked to confirm the remove operation.

Anyway, the basic idea is this: minimal list of programs installed, desktop environment -- pick one.

Shame on those XFCE/ArchLinux developers for not taking your needs into consideration.

So you want a pretty looking desktop that is supposed to make things easy for the user yet which doesn't come with all sorts of dependencies which one may or may not need, dependencies which are there so as to make things easy for the user? Uh...

Try a source based distribution? Compromise?

I guess so.

And why would a source distro be any different?

I thought the -c flag will cause it to delete programs that others depend on, maybe causing severe complications later.

I know of a few window managers that may be good, but none of them have a decent taskbar (IMO).

Heck, even Xfwm + taskbar app, but without the rest of Xfce would be fine with me.

It will cause it to delete programs that depend on the program you are trying to remove. But not before asking you if you are sure, first. I always use -Rcns, this way, if I'm thinking of deleting package A, the -c will let me know if this removal will have a negative impact on some other installed package.

Hmmmm......Most of what you install is required for the DE to work. With KDE, for example, there is a "base" package that only installs the minimum core capabilities.

OTOH, XFCE has no such "base"--you simply install the basic DE plus any accessories that you overtly choose.

Programs do not "rely on DEs"---they rely on libraries. Suppose, for example, that I want K3B on and XFCE system: K3B requires a lot of the KDE libraries, but not KDE itself.

The bottom line is unchanged:
Don't like the extra stuff that comes with a DE?---Install a different one.
Don't like DEs?---Install a WM.
Unhappy with the whole mess?--- http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/

How will that be any better unless you just use the CLI?

And still, those libraries rely on DE programs, as proven by my calculator example.

Please explain why it is not totally wrong for gtk-qalculate to require gnome-disk-utility to work?

EDIT: I tried PyPanel, but it wants to span both monitors. Resizing it worked, but if you max the window in the other monitor it will have a gap at the bottom.

The only point was that LFS is the ultimate in controlling what you have on your machine. You always have to include the dependencies for ANY SW that you install.

there is a subtle difference between libraries and programs, but---no matter: The parent application is written to use certain things----don't like that?.... You'd simply have to re-write it.

Wrong meaning immoral or illegal?....or just bad design? Regardless, not possible to answer this without digging thru the code. Perhaps that utility has more in it than the title implies.

Don't like the dependencies for gtk-calculate? <<You know what comes next......>>

GTK-Calculate? Perhaps you mean gcalctool

gcalctool: GNOME Scientific calculator; depends on gconf
gconf: A configuration database system; depends on libgnome
libgnome: Common libraries for GNOME; depends on gvfs
gvfs: Userspace virtual filesystem implemented as a pluggable module for gio; depends on gnome-disk-utility
gnome-disk-utility: GNOME libraries and applications for dealing with storage devices

Just a really badly screwed up design.

What? the Qt version?

Anyway, I found that I like SpeedCrunch better so I was able to remove that.

No, gtk-qalculate, with a Q, not a C.

It's actually qalculate-gtk. Dependency graph is shorter, just remove gconf from above.