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Old 08-30-2011, 08:02 PM   #3091
reed9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya View Post
We all are looking for something we want to hear or to find. This is not wrong, this is our nature. Just it is important to make sure that what you're looking for is to your benefit and not otherwise.
Not only . There are various sources, and since you were kind enough to admit to existence of people who're saying what I "like to hear", then I will say there are such ones among evolutionists, too. They, too, sometimes say what I like to hear.
And the conclusions -- they are mine to make.
It's called confirmation bias, and while it's true that we all do it, it's not a good thing. It's something to be aware of and try to overcome. It's part of why science puts such an emphasis on blinded studies and peer review.
 
Old 08-30-2011, 08:06 PM   #3092
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya View Post
I will say there are such ones among evolutionists, too. They, too, sometimes say what I like to hear.
No they don't. Creationists often spin them that way by taking their quotes out of context though.

Last edited by dugan; 08-30-2011 at 10:26 PM.
 
Old 08-31-2011, 04:59 AM   #3093
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Originally Posted by MrCode View Post
IMO, if "souls" exist (which is highly doubtful), they should "exist" in anything sentient, be it carbon-based life as we know it, or anything else (even a sentient AI).
I had the impression that "soul" and "mind"(sentience/intelligence) are two separate things (they're treated as two separate things pretty much everywhere). That makes me think (assuming soul exist) that sentience is possible without soul (and maybe vice versa).

Last edited by SigTerm; 08-31-2011 at 05:00 AM.
 
Old 08-31-2011, 06:53 AM   #3094
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I find the evolution arguments from the religious weak.

Even if you acept the 'no transitional creatures' argument, that means that the bible (and the torah, and the koran) is misleading or outright lies. There is no reference in any of those books to 'ongoing creation', as far as they are concerned creation happened at point 'X', not over the lifespan of the earth.

When you start looking at details, it makes even less sense. Africa, Asia and the Americas get primates. Here in australasia, roles/enviromental niches that are filled with primates in the old and new worlds tend to be filled by marsupials. In new zealand, they dont even have native marsupials, so those roles/niches are (well, were) filled by birds.

This makes no sense if god created all creatures. It makes prefect sense when considered from the point of view of evolution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya View Post
Lack of historical knowledge suggests controversy here, but that is easily explained.
Because Joseph the foster father of Jesus WAS the son of Jacob etc., thus leading up to David which was important in connection with Messianic prophecies.
On the other hand, it was not unusual in Jewish genealogies for a man to be called "son" to his father-in-law. Such things happen in several genealogies found in the Bible. Heli, therefore, was Mary's father and Luke's genealogy calling Jesus's father Joseph "son of Heli" is, in fact, Jesus' genealogy from his mother's side.

Therefore, this seeming "contradiction" is rather caused by then existing Jewish customs, than by the writers of the Bible. Neither you nor other critics didn't know this detail, yet you assumed the worst.
However, both genealogies being fully legitimate according to the Law serve their purpose to prove Jesus' descent from David, both through his fleshly mother and his foster father.

This short study reveals that (a) there is no contradiction, (b) both are legitimate genealogies for Jewish man Jesus and (c) notably Jesus is David's heir through both. Which is (d) a good enough confirmation that the prophecy comes true in his case. And (e) it reveals us some curious details about Jewish customs. In all this the Bible proves true in every detail.

There is an important lesson it it, too: not everything that "doesn't make sense from the start" is necessarily wrong. But our lack of knowledge suggests that we at least don't jump to conclusions before doing a good research.
And I don't think it really matters who it is who explains things to you. What is important is that you have enough patience and perseverance to apply this through exercise until you see good results.
I have never seen any Judaic source that says 'it is not unusual for a man to be called 'son' by his father in law'. Even if you did show that it happened verbally, it would NOT happen in genealogies.

Quote:
Numbers Chapter 1:2 Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, by their families, by their fathers' houses, according to the number of names, every male, by their polls;
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0401.htm#2

'Polluting' the genealogy (in any way) can lead to some consquences-

Quote:
Ezra Chapter 2:62 These sought their register, that is, the genealogy, but it was not found; therefore were they deemed polluted and put from the priesthood.
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt35a02.htm#59

So its got nothing to do with 'existing Jewish customs'.

So yes, there is still a contradiction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya View Post
C'mon, who has ever cared about the details of Jewish life, unless it be those studying the Bible?
Obviously not you.

For people with an intrest in culture, or looking at the weird monotheisms of the middle east circa 1350 B.C.E -> 200-300 C.E. its actually quite interesting and fairly important.

Last edited by cascade9; 08-31-2011 at 06:54 AM.
 
Old 08-31-2011, 07:23 AM   #3095
kostya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cascade9 View Post
Even if you acept the 'no transitional creatures' argument, that means that the bible (and the torah, and the koran) is misleading or outright lies. There is no reference in any of those books to 'ongoing creation', as far as they are concerned creation happened at point 'X', not over the lifespan of the earth.

When you start looking at details, it makes even less sense. Africa, Asia and the Americas get primates. Here in australasia, roles/enviromental niches that are filled with primates in the old and new worlds tend to be filled by marsupials. In new zealand, they dont even have native marsupials, so those roles/niches are (well, were) filled by birds.
I doubt you gave yourself trouble to understand the real effect of what Genesis says about creation.

Quote:
This makes no sense if god created all creatures. It makes prefect sense when considered from the point of view of evolution.
The same thing: you just followed YOUR line of reason and didn't review other possibilities. I won't do it for you.



Quote:
I have never seen any Judaic source that says 'it is not unusual for a man to be called 'son' by his father in law'. Even if you did show that it happened verbally, it would NOT happen in genealogies.
And Jesus' genealogy is WHAT?... Other genealogies found in the Bible are WHAT?
And since Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 CE with all its genealogies, HOW do you prove the opposite? And what "sources" will prove the opposite?
Quote:
'Polluting' the genealogy (in any way) can lead to some consquences-



http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt35a02.htm#59

So its got nothing to do with 'existing Jewish customs'.

So yes, there is still a contradiction.
I can hardly view modern customs of them who call themselves Jews today, but don't even read the Bible (read their Talmud, which is but a collection or rabbi teachings and customs of choice)and whose link with the time in question is all but lost, as valid reference. At most as questionable.

However, I don't see how attaching to a person his mother's genealogy pollutes it in any way. It is HIS genealogy and there are such cases found in the Bible, not only with regard to Jesus. As I said: there are NO genealogies today, those that existed once, were destroyed.

And what do you care about it? You found the "proof" you were looking for and don't bother to review other opportunities. Not exactly scientific.
 
Old 08-31-2011, 07:53 AM   #3096
kostya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by easuter View Post
kostoya, complexity is not necessarily caused by intelligence. The functioning of a termite hive is extremely complex, as is the structure itself yet the creatures who built it are devoid of any form of higher intelligence, let alone sentience.

Our very own bodies are an example of several smaller systems "duct taped" onto one another to form a complex and functioning super-system. However it is inefficient, extremely fragile, and has certain key systems placed close together when they should clearly be as independent from each other as possible (example: reproductive and urinary systems should not share the same "plumbing" - it's like making a hospital share the same facilities as a sewage treatment plant).
This is not the hallmark of a good engineer. It is exactly the kind of thing you would expect to happen in a system that changes slowly over time, where certain initial "features" can no longer be removed or relocated.

If you want to claim that your god created life, at the very very least you have to admit he/she is a terrible engineer. Yet you still claim he/she has infinite wisdom and knowledge. This just doesn't add up.
Dear easuter, let me explain.

I CAN follow your line of reasoning and that of other people here. I CAN see how it brings you where you are.
Of course, my understanding it doesn't automatically imply my ACCEPTING it. Like, for example, with your "poor design" point, by which I understand what you mean, but which I refuse to accept for myself. I mentioned some reasons why not, there are many others.
So I can't accept the line of reasoning which I know will lead me where I don't want to arrive. It is our decision what our life will be, so WE chose our ways and must be careful about it.
But I can follow this line and see how it works for them who accept it. And this is what I see: it is very convincing for them who are ready to accept it and are willing to accept it, yet it is not so for them who are critical about it because they don't want to accept it. So the central point remains whether or not you are WILLING to accept it. It's a wonder how you don't see it all this way. But we are all prone to errors and can change our views in time, I know this has happened even to some atheists.

With regard to God's wisdom let me just say, that with our incomplete "wisdom" we can hardly pretend to FULLY understand things around us. Without FULLY understanding them I would say it is (at least!!!) a bit premature and too daring to assume to judge about some "poorness" of design with regard to something so effective and marvellous as life.
Poor or not poor, the question remains: who and how inserted instincts into live creatures of various complexity? Those instincts are complex and flexible programs as you linux gurus can appreciate. So who did it???
I'm not surprised that by far not all scientists agree with your view on things.

You can read in the Bible the book of Job 38-41 to see the questions God asked a man who thought he understood God's ways and was in a good position to count himself more righteous, than God. I can imagine those questions would sound a bit different in a modern language if Job was a man with university education. But they are full of meaning even in their present form.
 
Old 08-31-2011, 07:58 AM   #3097
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Ok found something else about this God theme. Still not gonna argue because for some reason some people here keep missing point of healthy discusion. Anyway here is another reasonable explanation stuff about our possible origins and events around us. Again this is not claim but possibility to at least consider before deny. Long story shorter - mark of the beast is us(humans) and our true creator is Satan(original meaning is not evil) which had help from source then shared "his"(can be she(also adds up why woman is riding beast and why slutism is old proffesion and why many religions portrait females as sickness of world(to hide truth))) energy into us so we can experience life and the cloud God just wants us to worship it because he is evil and doesn't want us to be happy(this also explains why he eliminated us in Bible and stuff like not answering prays) but to work for global conspiracy. What conspiracy? Well..one about keeping humans in darkness, giving them food and education that blocks part of body that could reveal truth, keep economy to enslave us and force use electronic devices to keep track on us since they are loosing control touch. Sure it sounds bit too much of nonsence and stuff but you cant honestly say people who are in charge are completely honest. Religion and science spend way too much effort to convince us we are accident(big bang) and piece of trash(toy to some God which will send us to hell for beeing honest and enjoying life properly) in universe. Coincidence? Why they don't want people to live and believe whatever gives them strength? Because they know if people will start ask questions they will get answers which wont make profit for power-hungry people. Just think about this and listen to yourself(intuition, common sence) first. Btw dunno about your place of living but in our recently once again blood-donor-center urgently asked for specific blood type people to go and share it. Why? Health care reasons or..another part of conspiracy like in this video which would just mean they are searching for special people with same blood type to cover up something nasty? Also after i posted this idea in some website i got banned..wow someone must be scared of something if they ban people for something like this which wasnt threat or rudeness just idea to share.
P.S.Remember one more thing - we are same humans as our grandgrand...parents so if they got to some idea through perfoming rituals we can try that too and see what happens(it needs faith however to work).
Quote:
Originally Posted by easuter View Post
{...}If you want to claim that your god created life, at the very very least you have to admit he/she is a terrible engineer. Yet you still claim he/she has infinite wisdom and knowledge. This just doesn't add up.
It adds just fine if you start considering other options. There are other options about our origins not just perfect God or Evolution or even Aliens.
P.P.S.Look at recent events in USA(earthquake, hurricane) - another coincidence or proof that something IS going to happen either this year or next or bit later?
 
Old 08-31-2011, 08:18 AM   #3098
reed9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya View Post
Dear easuter, let me explain.
So I can't accept the line of reasoning which I know will lead me where I don't want to arrive.
I just want to emphasize this for all the folks to see. Again, this is the massive problem with religious thinking and why religion is not a reliable guide to what is true about the universe. The intellectually honest method is to follow where the evidence leads no matter what your personal opinion or preference.

Quote:
Poor or not poor, the question remains: who and how inserted instincts into live creatures of various complexity? Those instincts are complex and flexible programs as you linux gurus can appreciate. So who did it???
There is no need for agency here. Evolution explains how complex systems can arise through non-intelligent, non-random change.

You can find scientists who will disagree with pretty much anything. Theories do not rise or fall based on personal opinion but evidence. In your link he says
Quote:
‘How,’ I wondered, ‘could synapses and the genetic programs underlying them be products of mere blind chance?’ It really made no sense.
1. This is an argument from ignorance. Even if we didn't know how, God does not follow. All that follows is that we don't know.

2. He's simply wrong about "blind chance". Evolution is not a random process.
 
Old 08-31-2011, 10:01 AM   #3099
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya View Post
My mistake, I apologise. The point was it was not a link.
Fair enough, but my point still stands. When archaeopterix was kicked out of the bird lineage (which isn't a settled issue, by the way), it was replaced with a better one, so that story doesn't help your case... it hurts it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya View Post
That fin of Tiktaalik shown on the photo also "might be" anything you want, with all due respect. And I agree, it won't hurt to find some more to see what it actually is.
And that's a fair criticism, which would also apply to panderichthys.

However, even if you throw those two out entirely, you still have the coelecanth and the DNA study, so the argument in favor of the fin-limb transition is still pretty good.
 
Old 08-31-2011, 10:04 AM   #3100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegospel View Post
Okay. Imagine having never had any sense of sight, hearing, touching, tasting or smelling, and yet having a language of thought, and being aware. That's your soul. Spirit is the source of these others, and yet more that we do not comprehend.

As far as "confirming" my definition, many testify about the soul, yet defining the soul comes through personal revelation.
So my original statement that you're confusing self-awareness for "soul" has been officially confirmed, so that's an argument ended.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness
 
Old 08-31-2011, 10:05 AM   #3101
easuter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
Ok found something else about this God theme. Still not gonna argue because for some reason some people here keep missing point of healthy discusion. Anyway here is another reasonable explanation stuff about our possible origins and events around us. Again this is not claim but possibility to at least consider before deny. Long story shorter - mark of the beast is us(humans) and our true creator is Satan(original meaning is not evil) which had help from source then shared "his"(can be she(also adds up why woman is riding beast and why slutism is old proffesion and why many religions portrait females as sickness of world(to hide truth))) energy into us so we can experience life and the cloud God just wants us to worship it because he is evil and doesn't want us to be happy(this also explains why he eliminated us in Bible and stuff like not answering prays) but to work for global conspiracy. What conspiracy? Well..one about keeping humans in darkness, giving them food and education that blocks part of body that could reveal truth, keep economy to enslave us and force use electronic devices to keep track on us since they are loosing control touch. Sure it sounds bit too much of nonsence and stuff but you cant honestly say people who are in charge are completely honest. Religion and science spend way too much effort to convince us we are accident(big bang) and piece of trash(toy to some God which will send us to hell for beeing honest and enjoying life properly) in universe. Coincidence? Why they don't want people to live and believe whatever gives them strength? Because they know if people will start ask questions they will get answers which wont make profit for power-hungry people. Just think about this and listen to yourself(intuition, common sence) first. Btw dunno about your place of living but in our recently once again blood-donor-center urgently asked for specific blood type people to go and share it. Why? Health care reasons or..another part of conspiracy like in this video which would just mean they are searching for special people with same blood type to cover up something nasty? Also after i posted this idea in some website i got banned..wow someone must be scared of something if they ban people for something like this which wasnt threat or rudeness just idea to share.
P.S.Remember one more thing - we are same humans as our grandgrand...parents so if they got to some idea through perfoming rituals we can try that too and see what happens(it needs faith however to work).
It adds just fine if you start considering other options. There are other options about our origins not just perfect God or Evolution or even Aliens.
P.P.S.Look at recent events in USA(earthquake, hurricane) - another coincidence or proof that something IS going to happen either this year or next or bit later?
There's so much crazy in your post and in that video that I don't know where to begin. I'd advise you to remove your tinfoil hat before it grows roots into your brain.

Last edited by easuter; 08-31-2011 at 10:06 AM.
 
Old 08-31-2011, 10:08 AM   #3102
SL00b
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya View Post
We all are looking for something we want to hear or to find. This is not wrong, this is our nature. Just it is important to make sure that what you're looking for is to your benefit and not otherwise.
Speak for yourself. You may be looking just for the things you want to find. Some of us are just looking around.

Since we're talking about evolution, let's put this in survival terms. Say you're dropped on a small tropical island. Instead of exploring the island, taking stock of what it provides, and formulating a survival strategy based on that, you're wandering around in circles trying to find a burger place.

Last edited by SL00b; 08-31-2011 at 10:20 AM.
 
Old 08-31-2011, 10:12 AM   #3103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya View Post
Dear easuter, let me explain.

I CAN follow your line of reasoning and that of other people here. I CAN see how it brings you where you are.
Of course, my understanding it doesn't automatically imply my ACCEPTING it. Like, for example, with your "poor design" point, by which I understand what you mean, but which I refuse to accept for myself. I mentioned some reasons why not, there are many others.
So I can't accept the line of reasoning which I know will lead me where I don't want to arrive. It is our decision what our life will be, so WE chose our ways and must be careful about it.
But I can follow this line and see how it works for them who accept it. And this is what I see: it is very convincing for them who are ready to accept it and are willing to accept it, yet it is not so for them who are critical about it because they don't want to accept it. So the central point remains whether or not you are WILLING to accept it. It's a wonder how you don't see it all this way. But we are all prone to errors and can change our views in time, I know this has happened even to some atheists.

With regard to God's wisdom let me just say, that with our incomplete "wisdom" we can hardly pretend to FULLY understand things around us. Without FULLY understanding them I would say it is (at least!!!) a bit premature and too daring to assume to judge about some "poorness" of design with regard to something so effective and marvellous as life.
Poor or not poor, the question remains: who and how inserted instincts into live creatures of various complexity? Those instincts are complex and flexible programs as you linux gurus can appreciate. So who did it???
I'm not surprised that by far not all scientists agree with your view on things.

You can read in the Bible the book of Job 38-41 to see the questions God asked a man who thought he understood God's ways and was in a good position to count himself more righteous, than God. I can imagine those questions would sound a bit different in a modern language if Job was a man with university education. But they are full of meaning even in their present form.
Tell me that two links to the official site of the Jehovah's Witnesses didn't just happen.

This explains a lot.
 
Old 08-31-2011, 10:13 AM   #3104
brianL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
Ok found something else about this God theme. Still not gonna argue because for some reason some people here keep missing point of healthy discusion. Anyway here is another reasonable explanation stuff about our possible origins and events around us. Again this is not claim but possibility to at least consider before deny. Long story shorter - mark of the beast is us(humans) and our true creator is Satan(original meaning is not evil) which had help from source then shared "his"(can be she(also adds up why woman is riding beast and why slutism is old proffesion and why many religions portrait females as sickness of world(to hide truth))) energy into us so we can experience life and the cloud God just wants us to worship it because he is evil and doesn't want us to be happy(this also explains why he eliminated us in Bible and stuff like not answering prays) but to work for global conspiracy. What conspiracy? Well..one about keeping humans in darkness, giving them food and education that blocks part of body that could reveal truth, keep economy to enslave us and force use electronic devices to keep track on us since they are loosing control touch. Sure it sounds bit too much of nonsence and stuff but you cant honestly say people who are in charge are completely honest. Religion and science spend way too much effort to convince us we are accident(big bang) and piece of trash(toy to some God which will send us to hell for beeing honest and enjoying life properly) in universe. Coincidence? Why they don't want people to live and believe whatever gives them strength? Because they know if people will start ask questions they will get answers which wont make profit for power-hungry people. Just think about this and listen to yourself(intuition, common sence) first. Btw dunno about your place of living but in our recently once again blood-donor-center urgently asked for specific blood type people to go and share it. Why? Health care reasons or..another part of conspiracy like in this video which would just mean they are searching for special people with same blood type to cover up something nasty? Also after i posted this idea in some website i got banned..wow someone must be scared of something if they ban people for something like this which wasnt threat or rudeness just idea to share.
P.S.Remember one more thing - we are same humans as our grandgrand...parents so if they got to some idea through perfoming rituals we can try that too and see what happens(it needs faith however to work).
It adds just fine if you start considering other options. There are other options about our origins not just perfect God or Evolution or even Aliens.
P.P.S.Look at recent events in USA(earthquake, hurricane) - another coincidence or proof that something IS going to happen either this year or next or bit later?
Then I read this post,
Now I'm a believer,
There's not a trace,
Of doubt in my mind.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!
 
Old 08-31-2011, 10:15 AM   #3105
SL00b
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
P.P.S.Look at recent events in USA(earthquake, hurricane) - another coincidence or proof that something IS going to happen either this year or next or bit later?
Neither. They're proof that the Eastern seaboard is still in the Eastern seaboard.

But yeah, I'm sure something is going to happen later this year and beyond, just like it always does.
 
  


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