The Faith & Religion mega Thread

I don't like that fatalistic world view. If it would be the case that your way is totally determined you can simply choose to do nothing at all, because all that is planned for you will happen in any way. That would be more disturbing for me.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Well you can test Ram (or any other God) with 4 rules to know if he is really God or not: a. He is Allah, the One and Only. b. Allah , the Eternal Refuge. c. He neither begets nor is born. d. Nor is there to Him any equivalent. a. He is Allah, the One and Only.

Who said it, where is it written? Citations please.

Originally Posted by TobiSGD If your god can only make the people believe with punishment he is doing something wrong. if he simply would show up people wouldn't have to believe, they would know.

He would show up to you, you beleive. Your son later would also demand same because he would not believe in you. So God would have to show up each and every person on earth. why he needs to do that? Instead he would easily put faith element in our brain, instead of thinking and analyzing. Problem solved.

But he didn't do that. He wants you to think, analyze and believe in him and his creation. He also knows not everyone will do that. If everybody started believing in him, what will be the use of hell?

And what is if you believe in the wrong god and obey to the wrong rules? Then all your believe is worth nothing.

We say God is God, the only, no image, no human like characters. Something which you can just imagine, but cant draw or limit with anything.

Hmmm now assume God is with some image/idol. Some people on earth pray God with that image. Since we dont pray God with image and God is single, my belief gets fit into that easily.

Assume if there are several Gods, you can think we pray the supreme of them. So still no issue.

So chances of praying wrong God is zero.

@MrCode: You don't want to accept what you understand as the conclusions of science because it hurts your ego. Is that what you've said in every one of your posts?

Originally Posted by TobiSGD I don't like that fatalistic world view. If it would be the case that your way is totally determined you can simply choose to do nothing at all, because all that is planned for you will happen in any way. That would be more disturbing for me.

Its planned in such a way that control is in your hand. You choose your way.

Originally Posted by Anisha Kaul Who said it, where is it written? Citations please.

Its from Quran 112:1-4.

http://quran.com/112

Originally Posted by TobiSGD If I am dead I am dead, that's it.

Not exactly. If you're dead, you don't exist anymore (unless there's afterlife). For some people this is a huge problem.
There is more than one reason for fear of death, you know.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli A good believer should have fear from God punishment. Then only he obeys.

Basically, by your logic, you're a god's slave. A "Lord" can do whatever it wants with you, and you have to obey and live in fear.
I don't want deity like that - tyrants should be destroyed.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Such people generally dont have fear from death.

Yeah, right, they have fear of hell instead.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Non-believers have hidden fear, whatif there is real a God.

That's not true.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli 1. You are asking to pray Ram instead of Allah. Well you can test Ram (or any other God) with 4 rules to know if he is really God or not: a. He is Allah, the One and Only. b. Allah , the Eternal Refuge. c. He neither begets nor is born. d. Nor is there to Him any equivalent.

Once again, you decided to ignore every single post before yours and try to jam your faith into people's throats using brute force. This tactic didn't work in the past, and there is no reason for it to work now. Or are you trying to bore people to death?

Originally Posted by ShaanAli He would show up to you, you beleive. Your son later would also demand same because he would not believe in you. So God would have to show up each and every person on earth. why he needs to do that?

God - by definition - is almighty and omnipotent. It shouldn't be a problem to visit every person on the planet or assign a real angel to every church as a proof of god's existence. Just think about it. If there was a real supernatural being assigned to every church by deity (assuming there is a deity), people would have significantly less reasons to doubt gods existence.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli He wants you to think, analyze and believe in him and his creation. He also knows not everyone will do that. If everybody started believing in him, what will be the use of hell?

Who are you to say that you know god's thoughts/intentions? Isn't that a sin in your religion?

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Assume if there are several Gods, you can think we pray the supreme of them. So still no issue.

There will be an issue if the god you're praying to is NOT the supreme of them. There's zero reason to think that allah exists OR that it is supreme deity.
Keep providing arguments like that and more people will abandon their religion to become atheists or agnostics.

Originally Posted by MrCode free will? Bah, humbug. A pointless illusion of no value except to make people feel warm and fuzzy inside.

Determinism? Bah! Humbug! A feeble excuse made by the weak to avoid responsibility for their actions.
If all our thoughts, feelings, and actions, are predetermined, who or what does the predetermining? Where is it "written"?

who or what does the predetermining? Where is it "written"?

The only place it's "written" is in our thoughts, feelings, actions, etc., which, if you think about it, are merely abstractions of physical phenomena. The "who or what" would be material causality.

Plus which, as has been said before, it's not necessarily determinism that prevents free will from being a logical possibility (let alone a real one ): even if you take into account "quantum uncertainty" (which, BTW, it could be argued is simply a result of us not yet having the means to measure such things with exact certainty), you still have the problem of control, i.e. that you have none. There is no universe, deterministic or otherwise, where you have "control" over your acts.

…another thing: I only mention it as "a pointless illusion with no value except to make people feel warm and fuzzy inside" because that's the general impression I've gotten from people with a deterministic viewpoint on the issue. In other words, the general consensus seems to be that belief in free will is simply not (objectively) necessary, and/or is a hindrance to progress, because it relies on ignorance.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Its from Quran 112:1-4. http://quran.com/112

You have ANY idea how low you have stooped now?
You even know what you are talking?

You are telling me that because those rules are mentioned in Quran, and since Lord Ram (from Hindusism) doesn't fit those rules (mentioned in Quran), he is NOT a God.

You said:

Originally Posted by ShaanAli For him all human being are same does not matter which religion one follow.

So again, this means that Allah should have absolutely no problems with me even if I follow Hinduism and do NOT believe at all in Islam?

Determinism is more of an hindrance to progress than free will/choice. Why bother with research into curing illnesses, if people are meant to die? Why bother with punishment, if people can't help committing crimes? Determinism might seem like a hard scientific fact to you, MrCode, but to me it's exactly the same as the old superstitious Will Of God idea.

Originally Posted by SigTerm Basically, by your logic, you're a god's slave. A "Lord" can do whatever it wants with you, and you have to obey and live in fear. I don't want deity like that - tyrants should be destroyed.

You are right, we call ourself His slave. Whoever full fills his master's order is called slave. He is our creator. We don't find any issue obeying his rules, when we know those rules are for us only, not for His benefit. for example, One rule is to build good relationship with neighbors. I don't think this is for God. Another rule, is not to drink alcohol. This is also for our beneficial. I dont know any rule mentioned in holy book which is harmful for us and is beneficial for God.

You may easily ignore his rules now, because you dont know what will be next with you.

But you follow your family rules, your college rules, your company rules, your road rules, your country rules..... because if you dont follow them, you know what will happen with you next.

Once again, you decided to ignore every single post before yours and try to jam your faith into people's throats using brute force. This tactic didn't work in the past, and there is no reason for it to work now. Or are you trying to bore people to death?

I just replied to questions asked to me sometime back. Since I was not available last few days.

God - by definition - is almighty and omnipotent. It shouldn't be a problem to visit every person on the planet or assign a real angel to every church as a proof of god's existence. Just think about it. If there was a real supernatural being assigned to every church by deity (assuming there is a deity), people would have significantly less reasons to doubt gods existence.

You probably missed my later statements. If He wanted this to happen, He could have programmed us in that way itself same like angels. There was no need of any religion, any church etc... We would have lived our life as per program and die. But wont that be bore?
He didnt do that with us. He left us with free will. He gave us brain to think and analyze.

Who are you to say that you know god's thoughts/intentions? Isn't that a sin in your religion?

I didnt say that I know God's thoughts/intentions. I said whatever is written in book and makes sense. (atleast to me).

There will be an issue if the god you're praying to is NOT the supreme of them. There's zero reason to think that allah exists OR that it is supreme deity. Keep providing arguments like that and more people will abandon their religion to become atheists or agnostics.

Thats what I said in first line. We believe God is one and only, there is no one equivalent to Him.

Without his own study if a person converts (believer to non-believer Or vice versa Or change his religion), I would say he is a fool.

Originally Posted by Anisha Kaul You have ANY idea how low you have stooped now? You even know what you are talking? You are telling me that because those rules are mentioned in Quran, and since Lord Ram (from Hindusism) doesn't fit those rules (mentioned in Quran), he is NOT a God. You said: So again, this means that Allah should have absolutely no problems with me even if I follow Hinduism and do NOT believe at all in Islam?

You have some problem in understanding I think. I said Ram is not a God as per my book definition of God. He may be God for you.

Hinduism is full of polytheist, idol worship. Didn't I say "several times" these are biggest sin as per my religion.

Hope this is clear to you now.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli I said Ram is not a God as per my book definition of God. He may be God for you.

This is very clear for me now. You mean whatever you said, is just your BELIEF w.r.t Quran. Good.

Btw, Beliefs != Facts.

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Hinduism is full of polytheist, idol worship. Didn't I say "several times" these are biggest sin as per my religion.

But then you said, Allah has no problems with people following other religions!

Originally Posted by ShaanAli Whoever full fills his master's order is called slave.

I have a very strong impression that you don't understand the meaning of word "slave".

I will not accept any religion that treats its followers as god's slaves. Even if such religion actually represents the truths, it simply means that its deity should be dealt with.

If you really think this way:

Originally Posted by ShaanAli You are right, we call ourself His slave.

In this case I have a very good reason to think that Islam - as a religion - should be avoided at all costs by everybody. It doesn't matter whether your god exists or not. It doesn't matter whether your rules make sense or not. People should not blindly "obey". They should think, make decisions for themselves and deal with consequences. "Obey" is for machines without personality.