^ Shaming people who wear masks and leading a culture war over masks will never be seen as a good thing.
How many needless deaths has that led to?

Which is to say there's much more to Covid response than shutting down the economy.

8bit

...AND let's not forget that whatever the reasoning behind it, Trump was chastised by many Democrats for initiating lockdown, and they didn't change their stance for over a month. We already know he was far from the best at dealing with what he knew but he was just as far from the worst, compared to other national leaders. That said, I think you are right, hazel, that we have yet to feel the all too real economic consequences of pandemic and no matter how knowledgeable and proactive one is, you are powerless in most cases to do anything about it if you can't afford to DO anything.

Can you link to any supporting data for this opinion? TIA.
It was the states that shut things down beginning in mid March.

A detailed timeline of all the ways Trump failed to respond to the coronavirus. - https://www.vox.com/2020/6/8/2124200...virus-response

January 31: Trump suspends entry to the US for many — but not all — categories of people traveling from China, a move which some epidemiologists warned at the time was “more of an emotional or political reaction” than a public health decision. The Department of Health and Human Services declares the coronavirus a public health emergency.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/31/b...ronavirus.html
At this point, sharply curtailing air travel to and from China is more of an emotional or political reaction, said Dr. Michael T. Osterholm, an epidemiologist and director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota.
“The cow’s already out of the barn,” he said, ”and we’re now talking about shutting the barn door.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/u...trictions.html
There were 1,300 direct flights to 17 cities before President Trump’s travel restrictions. Since then, nearly 40,000 Americans and other authorized travelers have made the trip, some this past week and many with spotty screening...
About 60 percent of travelers on direct flights from China in February were not American citizens, according to the most recently available government data. Most of the flights were operated by Chinese airlines after American carriers halted theirs.


"In March, the coronavirus for the first time began to intrude on daily life in a major way. The NBA shut down on March 11, the same night Trump addressed the nation in primetime from the Oval Office, announcing a European travel ban and promising economic relief efforts. (almost 2 1/2 months after he first learned about the virus - 8bit)

Not long after that speech, California became the first state to implement a general stay-at-home order on March 19.

By the end of the month, more than 30 states had done the same, and those shutdowns — a public health necessity, in the opinion of most experts — brought the US economy to a screeching halt. As a result, it’s maybe not surprising that Trump, who has previously tied his reelection pitch directly to the economy, spent much of the month broadcasting an unwarranted optimism about the trajectory of the virus and promoting potential treatments like hydroxychloroquine — which the FDA has since warned against using for Covid-19 treatment or prevention, noting it can cause heart problems.

The growing severity of the pandemic, however, also led to a mid-March social distancing push from the White House. Shortly after his primetime address, Trump announced a new slate of guidelines advising against discretionary travel and against congregating in groups of more than 10 people.

And toward the end of the month, the growing death toll from the coronavirus — centered on New York, Trump’s longtime home — appeared to have an impact on the president. In a press conference, he acknowledged that the first half of April was “going to be a rough two-week period” and walked back previous statements downplaying the coronavirus by comparing it to the seasonal flu."

8bit

My guesstimate on this is that the World is going to go broke, with the possible exception of dictator-run States. Places like Singapore, where you do years in Jail for jaywalking. I heard they were interrogating cases and slapping mandatory 14-day "Do not leave your house - for any reason" orders on their possible contacts. They had to get food delivered, and stay in. Democracies can't do that.

That's when the precious metals horded by the world's religions will look awfully tempting…… for the simple reason it will be the only cash left.

Democracies where the citizens respect and trust the government's actions can. (Do let me know if you find one.)

More likely Amazon et al will create CovCoin, a world-wide digital currency that requires a subdermal implant with 24/7 tracking, with a ToS that permits them to seize any and all metals at any time.

I don't know about respect for the government, but here you go:
"Melbourne has endured one of the longest COVID-19 lockdowns in the world and finally, an end is in sight.

Debate will rage for decades over what worked, whether it was too long or whether the price in terms of jobs or unemployment was too high.

After 100 days confined to their homes and ordered not to leave for more than two hours of daily exercise – it started as a one hour limit – Victorians have lived a grim existence that few Australians outside of the state can understand.

But by enduring it and sticking to the plan, have Victorians also made history as one of the only cities across the globe to bring a second wave of coronavirus under control and return daily case numbers to zero?"

https://www.news.com.au/world/corona...d706db631f3a0e

"America‘s top COVID-19 expert Dr Anthony Fauci has praised Victoria’s recovery from its second wave of coronavirus after a gruelling, months-long lockdown.

But Dr Fauci also revealed that he wouldn’t dare publicly suggesting similar measures in the US, which has now had more than 9 million coronavirus cases: “If I were to use the words shutdown and lockdown, I’d be in serious trouble … they’d probably throw tomatoes at me,” he said.

Speaking in a University of Melbourne panel discussion with Doherty Institute director Sharon Lewin and helmed by the University’s Professor Shitij Kapur, Dr Fauci said Australia had done “quite well” handling the pandemic."

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/he...203e193eae70e3

I wouldn't want to live anywhere else right now. We're coming into summer and the city is re-opening.

As of this morning, our 14 day rolling daily average of new cases is 2.4, and there are 34 active cases. https://www.dhhs.vic.gov.au/averages...tions-covid-19

Yet Sweden did almost nothing and is not in trouble. They did fail the senior centers at first but currently they enjoy freedom and mostly free of Covid. https://www.worldometers.info/corona...ountry/sweden/


Australia did have what most believe was a less infectious strain. We should compare apples to apples.

It's not true to say that Sweden did 'almost nothing'... but people love to say it for some reason.

Secondly, their numbers are quite high, so I don't quite understand what point you're trying to make there.
!

I don't know where you heard that, but what a load of nonsense.

On 5th August, we had 800 cases per day in Melbourne (pop. 5 million)... We've just had two days with no cases.

Personally, I don't think it's the Government, but the cop-on of ordinary and young people.

Sweden did little, but stressed social distancing. It was possible to social distance in Sweden, and people did. That imho, is what saved them.

In more densely populated places, it was not practical to social distance. In Lombardy, Italy, where my daughter is, nobody is socially distanced, but crowded you in shops and ignored social distancing. They were punished in 1st wave, and are now enjoying a massive 2nd wave.

In Ireland, we were fairly well behaved in the 1st lockdown. The main reason we're in a second one is that younger folks got careless and are now making the bulk of cases. Older folks are still behaving themselves, and the only way they get Covid is a younger person gives it to them. Halloween is a big social thing here for young folks this weekend and rules will be broken here - you watch. The first two rules by which people live here are:

1. Most rules are made to be broken.
2. It's better to ask forgiveness than permission.

My apology eight.bit.al for being less than specific. I used the word "lockdown" in a confusing manner. It was actually about the lock out of travelers from China. I think you are correct that the motivation was more emotional and political but so what? It's obvious the right still tends to underestimate the danger of Covid, at least compared to what those left of center do. The bottom line is we really don't know yet what are all the consequences of either response. We don't yet the deep details of what is best beyond basic precautions like distancing and masks. How much our economic underpinnings should be impacted is also a huge issue that could affect far more than direct Covid infection.

It may turn out that responses like New Zealand's may turn out to be best, but seeing serious concern from EU over economics is not a small concern and could be far more disastrous than any infectious pandemic directly. This has yet to play out. It's still gambling against vague odds and conflicting values.

Accepted, don't give it another thought.
As a veracious consumer of current affair news originating from all points of the (geo)political compass; I haven't yet heard it called a lock out. Travel ban, or more accurately, travel restriction, yes. Seems an odd choice of wording.

The what is motivation. If it had been of a logical/scientific impetus instead of a xenophobic based reaction, it stands to reason a more comprehensive strategy might have been put forth. As it was, at least 40,000 persons were still allowed to enter, of which, reportedly 60% were non American citizens.

https://www.thinkglobalhealth.org/ar...ne-coronavirus

And that's being too kind. White House science office lists 'ending the COVID-19 pandemic' as an administration accomplishment. Link
Even Fox News (Faux News) is walking that back. (by blaming Biden)

The President is mocking masks in his daily Covidpalooza rallies.

How can reasonable people fall for this? If one could reason with members of a cult, there wouldn't be any cults.

You lost me here. Do you mean playing down the virus or taking it as seriously as it deserves as the two responses?
It seems, and it's easy to say after the fact, that a good plan for the US of NA would have been an early month long lock down, with and followed by, strict mask and social distancing. Instead we had a President claiming it was a Democratic hoax meant to hurt his chances of re-election.

We would be far ahead of the curve had that happened; both pandemicly and economically.

As to where do we go from here, at least the strict mask and social distancing part; reportedly said to save 100,000 lives by the end of this year.

And lastly, I agree with both you and Hazel, we can't have the hindsight of 5 or 10 years from now.


8bit

Attached Thumbnails

 

This is far far away from what other countries are doing.

"
What can I do to protect myself and others?
Listen

We all have a personal responsibility to do what we can in order to prevent the spread of COVID-19.

This is what you can do:

Stay at home if you are ill. If you have tested positive for COVID-19 you should stay at home for at least seven days after falling ill including two days with no fever.
You should get tested if your symptoms do not pass within 24 hours or if your symptoms do not have some other explanation, e.g. allergy or migraine. Read more on the website 1177.se for advice on sampling in your region. It is always the region that decides who should be tested, based on the regional conditions.
Maintain good hand hygiene. Wash your hands with soap and water for at least 20 seconds. If handwashing facilities are not available, alcohol-based hand rub is an alternative. The alcohol-based hand rub should contain at least 60 % alcohol.
Avoid touching you face (eyes, nose, mouth). Cover your mouth and nose with your bent elbow or paper tissue when you cough or sneeze.
Maintain physical distance from other people, indoors and outdoors in places where people gather such as shops, museums, libraries, civic centres, bathing places, beaches, camping sites, open-air cafés and restaurants.
Avoid social gatherings like parties, funerals, and weddings.
Maintain physical distance from other people at sports grounds, in swimming baths, in gyms, and other exercise facilities. Avoid using public changing rooms.
If possible, travel by other means than public transportation, e.g. by bicycle or walk.
If you need to travel by public transport, it is preferable to choose an alternative where it is possible to book a seat in advance, e.g. train. We advise you to avoid any travel by public transport where you cannot book a seat in advance, e.g. trams, subway and local buses. If this is not possible, ensure physical distance from other people.
Do not travel at rush hour unless necessary."

https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/...trol/covid-19/

You're both saying the right scorns Covid precautions. DT is holding big, non socially-distant & maskless rallies. Are we therefore to expect a cull of right-leaning Americans? Or at least, a plague among them?

Yes, Covid denial is a self correcting issue. There is a measurable and consistent uptick in infection rates in the areas of DT's rallies.

8bit

I'm not so sure it is self correcting. DT certainly hasn't self corrected. If Covid had 100% mortality, maybe then…

My late honoured father explained the concept of 'Invincible Ignorance' to me when I was a kid. He encountered much of it in his line of work. His advice was to flee - that there was no way of defeating it, because it was invincible. So all that was at risk in trying to overcome it was my sanity. Flight was the safest and sanest course.