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Old 10-30-2020, 03:29 PM   #286
jefro
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https://www.foxnews.com/world/thousa...in-wuhan-china

Look, no masks, no social distancing. Thousands from outside area flocking to city. I'd suspect a vaccine for this China plague.
 
Old 10-31-2020, 05:03 AM   #287
ondoho
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^ Fox bashing china. What else is new.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
Whether Trump has done a good job with covid won't be clear for at least five years
That's like saying "whether the dog has done a good job raiding our pantry & shitting on the carpet won't be clear for at least five years"...
Sorry, but it's not rocket science. Deliberate suppression of truth & fact on both political and personal level, and the complete lack of any sort of strategy is, almost by definition, not a good job.
The problem is that most US (and apparently also some UK) citizens look at this as a binary problem: either keep everything open, or lock everything down.
There's also something deeply immoral about the idea of culling the herd for the sake of the economy, if you ask me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rkelsen View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefro View Post
Yet Sweden did almost nothing and is not in trouble.
It's not true to say that Sweden did 'almost nothing'... but people love to say it for some reason.
Secondly, their numbers are quite high, so I don't quite understand what point you're trying to make there.
Oh, they are in trouble.
They have admitted they went about it the wrong way and have, if not reversed, at least amended their course. And even before that, they did actually have a strategy, and still do. Sweden did not "do nothing". IMO certain libertarians like to blow the case Sweden out of context & proportion. It's not an either/or, on/off situation. My country runs a "hybrid" strategy as well.
There's also something deeply immoral about the idea of culling the herd for the sake of the economy, if you ask me.
 
Old 10-31-2020, 08:00 AM   #288
business_kid
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The "Correct" Covid reaction surely varies.
  1. If you lock down too hard, and too long, the economy dies, businesses fail, Governments must support things etc. so the country goes broke.
  2. If you don't lock down enough, people get sick/die, hospitals are overwhelmed, serious cases and deaths skyrocket. Then people can't get hospitalised with Covid.
  3. If folks don't social distance, (e.g. at the White House 'superspreader' event) they become spreaders of Covid.It's interesting to note that that particular event could not have been held anywhere else in Washington due to Covid restrictions. The White House is Federal Land.
  4. Your population density matters hugely.
  5. How people who don't really fear Covid react to restrictions matters hugely.

So it's hard to make quick judgements. A leader may get some things right through incompetence, but hardly them all.
 
Old 10-31-2020, 08:42 AM   #289
ntubski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
There's also something deeply immoral about the idea of culling the herd for the sake of the economy, if you ask me.
Standard of living is positively correlated with life expectancy, so arguably by saving the economy you also save lives. It's harder to measure those lives than those lost to covid though.

Quote:
They[Sweden] have admitted they went about it the wrong way
On the other hand, Norway also says it went the wrong way: https://www.thelocal.no/20200522/nor...n-health-chief
Quote:
The head of the Norwegian Institute of Public Health believes Norway could have brought the coronavirus pandemic under control without a lockdown, and called for the country to avoid such far-reaching measures if hit by a second wave.
 
Old 10-31-2020, 09:20 AM   #290
boughtonp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntubski View Post
On the other hand, Norway also says it went the wrong way: https://www.thelocal.no/20200522/nor...n-health-chief
That was back in May. (And is suggesting they may have gone further than necessary, not the same as going the wrong way.)

What is their current opinion, given the last week?

 
Old 10-31-2020, 09:26 AM   #291
ondoho
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Sorry for going OT again...

People familiar with the difficulties of actually getting to vote in the US of NA can skip this one.
Today I learned that in addition to being of age & a citizen:
  • You need to be a registered voter. Registering is different from state to state, complex, requires time and effort, and needs to be done well in advance of elections. Usually only once in your lifetime, but:
  • You can be removed from the list of registered voters for any number of reasons. different from state to state. Whoever governs the state can change these rules (to their party political benefit).
  • Vote live on election day, or early, or postal? Postal requires planning, live requires time - maybe driving, then many hours of queuing, even with early voting (not enough early voting stations).
  • Elections are on a weekday, not on a weekend. What if you need to work?
  • (Early) voting stations are being strategically closed in certain areas (which? Brown/black?), maybe requiring to drive far to get to one that's open, increasing queuing times...
  • Early voting timespan can be limited (maybe weekdays only? Again: what if you have to work?)
  • Moving to a different state means different rules, confusion... e.g.: sometimes you need to bring your latest electricity bill to the voting station... wtf?! Unthinkable in my country.
  • (overly) complicated voting forms - 10 pages in Florida? In N-Carlina: voting for 17 different things on 3rd Nov.
  • Even with all that, a vote can be rejected for e.g. filling out the form carelessly, your signature having changed, or not having it in double envelopes...
This process has too many weak points which can be manipulated to drive party political interests.
In other words, voting is made for rich people with time on their hands.
If you struggle to survive, you might have a seriously hard time even getting to the voting station.

To compare, in my country:
Letter comes home months before election day: go vote between now and election day. Nationwide.
You just need to be a citizen & +18 years.
Early voting places/options are many (public libraries, schools, internet, postal) & well staffed, just takes a few minutes off your commute.
Elections are on a weekend.
 
Old 10-31-2020, 09:52 AM   #292
ntubski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boughtonp View Post
That was back in May. (And is suggesting they may have gone further than necessary, not the same as going the wrong way.)
It's the "wrong way" in the same sense that Sweden says it went the "wrong way": that they should have done things a bit differently in hindsight.

Quote:
What is their current opinion, given the last week?
https://www.thelocal.no/20201027/in-...s-restrictions
Quote:
"You can make small adjustments now... or you take strong measures later," Prime Minister Erna Solberg told a press conference.
"We have chosen the strategy of prudence with smaller restrictions now," she said.
[...]
Generally, the government is asking members of the public to meet no more than five other people weekly in social contexts.

Private events are limited to a maximum of 50 participants (a reduction from the previous 200). Social distancing of one metre must be complied with.
[...]
Oslo has implemented local restrictions which other localities can introduce at a later time, should this be assessed as necessary.
 
Old 10-31-2020, 01:57 PM   #293
mjolnir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
...They have admitted they went about it the wrong way and have, if not reversed, at least amended their course. And even before that, they did actually have a strategy, and still do. Sweden did not "do nothing". IMO certain libertarians like to blow the case Sweden out of context & proportion. It's not an either/or, on/off situation. My country runs a "hybrid" strategy as well.
There's also something deeply immoral about the idea of culling the herd for the sake of the economy, if you ask me.
It doesn't sound to me as if they have widespread qualms with their strategy - certainly not the guy who devised it:
'But in an interview in Stockholm on Wednesday, Tegnell said he had no regrets, and was "still confident" that Sweden's strategy is working, in broad terms. But like any strategy, it needs to be adapted all the time."'

and:

"Mr Tegnell says he thinks it's now clear that closing primary schools was unnecessary, which he considers a key takeaway from the crisis.
But at 44 deaths per 100,000, Sweden's mortality rate is among the highest globally and far exceeds rates in neighbouring Denmark and Norway, which imposed much tougher lockdowns early on. Like elsewhere, the virus hit Sweden's oldest citizens hardest.
"We could have been better at protecting our care facilities. We could probably have tested a bit more than we did in the very beginning", Mr Tegnell said. More controversially, he rejects face masks as a useful protection against the virus. The evidence on face masks is "extremely vague", he said." Emphasis mine. I think most Countries, in hindsight would modify their responses. In the beginning when NYC was losing a huge number of people in long term care facilities they, and others, would have afforded our elderly more protection.
 
Old 11-01-2020, 01:54 PM   #294
eight.bit.al
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
Sorry for going OT again...
business_kid should rename this thread to "Off Topic - 24/7/365"
(for those that are cinched a little too tight, don't take it seriously)

Quote:
...Today I learned that in addition to being of age & a citizen:...
This process has too many weak points which can be manipulated to drive party political interests...
Yes, way too complicated. Like our tax structure. Printed single spaced, both sides of the page, it stacks up over 7 feet tall.
That leaves space for the crooks/cheats to hide.

I blame our legal bribery system known as campaign contributions, and the revolving door( link two ) between government and business.

We need a world wide revolution against the almost unchecked powers of corporations to plunder the planet and it's people for the wealth of the few.

NSFW George Carlin - Another

8bit

Last edited by eight.bit.al; 11-01-2020 at 02:13 PM.
 
Old 11-01-2020, 09:33 PM   #295
eight.bit.al
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^ Further reading:

Who Stole the American Dream?

Hedrick Smith

Democracy Matters: Winning the Fight Against Imperialism

Cornel West

Culture Wars: The Threat to Your Family and Your Freedom
Marie Alena Castle

Last edited by eight.bit.al; 11-01-2020 at 09:38 PM.
 
Old 11-02-2020, 09:51 PM   #296
foobaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
What I've noticed is that DT's methodology of labeling somebody/something and then judging the label, is a practice that seems to be spreading. They're simple labels usually - 'good,' 'fine,' 'bad,' left/right, etc. I even noticed an instance or two in this thread, although the labels are much more sophisticated here.

On this side of the pond, they keep This poll survey fairly up to date - like every day or two.
Because the left hasn't been labeling everyone and everything they don't like a "racist, bigot, homophobic, gun-nut" for the past 20 years in an attempt to silence dissent.

I'm voting Trump simply because the left has gone insane and deviated from the values of traditional liberalism. When google, facebook, apple, and every corporation under the sun is backing "your" side and supporting censorship, you should probably reevaluate your candidate.
 
Old 11-02-2020, 11:15 PM   #297
jefro
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"We need a world wide revolution against the almost unchecked powers of corporations to plunder the planet and it's people for the wealth of the few." Are those companies promoting their agenda, candidates and squashing any opposing views?

"Today I learned that in addition to being of age & a citizen" Or you can be an illegal alien or even a felon. Anyone can vote. Dead people tend to vote a lot. I was in line to vote the other day. Young guy with pink hair came in and wanted to vote. He couldn't say where he lived. He was allowed to vote. Sure, might as well vote twice.

I tried to convince everyone around me about one candidates plan for flat taxes. I explained that they would save money, that (maybe) big companies and the rich would be forced to pay more in the scheme.
Absolutely no one was able to grasp or wanted to believe that the person was actually doing a better plan.
 
Old 11-02-2020, 11:40 PM   #298
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foobaru View Post
I'm voting Trump simply because the left has gone insane
Pardon my curiosity, but would you describe what happened on Friday on I-35 between Austin and San Antonio as sane behavior?
 
Old 11-02-2020, 11:50 PM   #299
michaelk
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Quote:
When google, facebook, apple, and every corporation under the sun is backing "your" side and supporting censorship, you should probably reevaluate your candidate.
I think both sides have gone insane but the GOP's only online message IMHO is to spread misinformation and lies. When caught with the outright lie they complain of censorship. The Democrats are guilty of the same thing but have not heard of them complain in the same manner.

Lets see what the GOP/POTUS has done...
Voter suppression as in limiting ballot boxes, reducing polling places maybe even slowing mail service, ID laws, purging voting rolls and gerrymandering. Basically making it harder for the poor, elderly and even students to vote. Which also includes minorities. Trying to delegitimize the election in every possible way. Two supposedly armed guards were at a Florida voting booth standing watch. They claimed they were hired by the Trump campaign. Vice President Pence bragged about the court battles he and Trump are using to try to tamp down on the maximum number of people voting.

Trump has been increasingly trying to get rid of the checks and balances of presidential power, signing an executive order (I don't know if it is really legal) to be able to fire any federal employee at will.

At the state level, seized power from Democratic governors after they have won elections. Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis proposed a bill that would effectively criminalize anti-police violence protests and protect drivers who ran over protesters with their cars. The Florida law that prohibited felons to vote was rescinded but the legislature passed another law that they could only vote if all their fines were paid. The system for paying those fines is so convoluted that no one can work through the system. Basically a poll tax.

The Trump administration tells nothing but the truth.

Dangerously promoting conspiracy theories, QANON and right wing militia groups.

The hypocrisy of EPA regulation rollbacks, climate change denial and yet claims to have done more the any other president to protect clean air and water. Says he as done more to protect national parks yet has sold more federal land to oil companies then any other president, allowed commerical fishing in once protected waters. Allowed the destruction of Indigenous cultural and burial sites within Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument for his border wall. Signed an executive order for the continued protection of Flordia waters from off shore drilling yet was trying to open the rest of the US coastline.
 
Old 11-03-2020, 01:16 AM   #300
descendant_command
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foobaru View Post
"racist, bigot, homophobic, gun-nut"
Well if the MAGA hat fits ...
 
  


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