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View Poll Results: Do you want a Linux with an Interview Style Install and Setup?
I'm a newbie/novice and Yes, I love that idea. thats just what Linux needs. 906 53.83%
I'm an occassional user, I don't care either way. 222 13.19%
I'm an experience/hardcore user and I don't need it to be any easier. I am happy with it the way it is. 555 32.98%
Voters: 1683. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-05-2004, 04:51 PM   #1741
Brane Ded
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Quote:
If you're an expert with Linux and possibly a programmer to boot then you can CLI, download ISO's, RPMI new programs, handle dependancies and pre-compiled binaries to your hearts content without ever going near a manual.
The difference between an expert trying to solve a problem and a newbie trying to solve a problem, is that the expert knows where to look. Nobody has the man pages memorized.

Quote:
So if your wanting to use Linux then get ready for hours of boring reading on how to boot the PC.
I prefer the power button. Everything after that should be self-explanatory. If not, something's wrong.

Quote:
How to shutdown the PC.
System->shutdown in GDM, or 'shutdown -h now' from a prompt. It doesn't take hours of reading to figure that one out.

Quote:
How to install a program.
It shouldn't take over an hour to figure that out, and you only have to learn once. If you can't stand RPMs(or any other package system), quit using the distros that rely on them. If you don't want to switch to something that uses an easier system, then deal with the one you have.

Quote:
How to get access to the internet in the first place.
What operating system sets up an internet connection by itself? Unless it's DHCP you have to know the info that your ISP gave you. You also have to know which program to use to set up the connection. This is true with any OS.

Quote:
Don't bother thinking about Google because your PC will need an internet connection plus setting up the firewall for max security before you can go any further.

Your granny will be able to do all this if she can find her glasses and if she lives long enough.
You'd make your granny set up a firewall by herself? Does granny know what a firewall is? You think granny could do any of that stuff in Windows without someone teaching her?

If I were to give my grandmother a Linux system, I'd at least set it up first. Would you buy her a Windows or Mac system, drop it off at her house and just say, "good luck," and leave? I hope not.

Once they're set up, the steps for checking your e-mail, and browsing the web are virtually the same as in any other OS. You're connecting to the same internet everyone else uses, so it shouldn't look any different. If granny could use Internet Explorer, then Firefox shouldn't be much of a leap. As a matter of fact, I installed Firefox on my grandmother's computer and she didn't even notice the difference at first.
 
Old 09-05-2004, 07:21 PM   #1742
Spy47
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Talagante, Chile
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I love Linux the way is it. I'm NEWBIE, and i LOVE it. Why? Because with Linux, you LEARN. Most Windows users don't know what GUI means, while a 1 day Linux newbie does.
 
Old 09-05-2004, 08:18 PM   #1743
sether
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i still can't believe people who want to make linux easier outnumber those who like it how it is. if you wan't an OS that costs too much, crashes a lot, has horrible security problems, and is sold by a huge corporation essentially holding a monopoly over the OS industry by screwing other people with good ideas over to get ahead, use windows. otherwise, if you want a fun, interesting, free, and virtually crash proof learning experience, go with linux/unix.

i think all OSes are basically the same difficulty, it's just too many people are too used to windows to even bother trying anything else, or they don't even know anything else exists. at least with linux/unix, you know more about your computer and how it works. windows users could care less about that.
 
Old 09-05-2004, 08:30 PM   #1744
DrNeil
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikshaw
I can understand why you might have trouble with compiling...If you're missing necessary libraries
But at least you can get or compile them not with M$ cr.psh.t Learned now msiexec command line, but NO it has to check the old pap is there. Not to mention that that old Toshiba Laptop I use to test Windows, came with a preinstalled OS, and was hardly able to run XP in the first place. (Well it ain't mine so what can you do) Just out of desperation I installed SP2, which installs a LOT, but not the right MAPI. And why oh why do they have a fixmapi in their system32 that doesn't work either. Even having a fix mapi program by default in Windows tells you a lot. But can you download several versions from M$, nope. Only reason to have MS is for Games and cause the rest of the luser world works on it. Even looking at that registry crap makes you just sick.

Yeah installation is easy when it works, but if it isn't you are damned to that idiotic knowledge base clicki clacki. .msp .msi shit. I can't even be arsed to figure it out.

My gf started out on a VAX in the old days. Unix is useable, also for beginners. You just gonna have to learn as in Windows.


Quote:
there will be a geek OS for us
I believe to be honest Unix isn't a geek system. It's a multiuser system and has been from start. The whole point of it is that, you have a guy/girl/whatever who can fix things and some people using it.

I mean when I see these PC World offers. PC Health check, defrag your hard disk. Windows user also have to ask someone if they can't fix it.

If something like Linspire would have been there at the right time, Unix would rule the world. Then people would have accepted that's how compis are. Bills CP/M clone was just that little but faster and with IBM support.

Last edited by DrNeil; 09-05-2004 at 08:31 PM.
 
Old 09-05-2004, 08:43 PM   #1745
prophet621
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Registered: Feb 2003
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Quote:
It shouldn't take over an hour to figure that out, and you only have to learn once
Oh how I wish that were true. I often have to relearn. I have a terrible memory for commands and minor details, I'll forget almost immediately after I use them.
 
Old 09-05-2004, 08:53 PM   #1746
DrNeil
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Quote:
Originally posted by prophet621
Oh how I wish that were true. I often have to relearn. I have a terrible memory for commands and minor details, I'll forget almost immediately after I use them.
Indeed in Windows you can at least feign you know what you do by clicking a couple of buttons. Something might work eventually. ..

So the "where could I look this up?", is replaced by "there was Window. somewhere wasn't it, now where is that window, here no here no, that looks a bit like it no. That nope?". Click clack.
 
Old 09-05-2004, 09:39 PM   #1747
prophet621
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Quote:
Indeed in Windows you can at least feign you know what you do by clicking a couple of buttons. Something might work eventually. ..
Quote:
So the "where could I look this up?", is replaced by "there was Window. somewhere wasn't it, now where is that window, here no here no, that looks a bit like it no. That nope?". Click clack.
Ah, a day in the life of us Windows IT guys...now quit giving out our secrets. It's all in knowing what to right-click on.

I'm more visually oriented, sure there are some commands I use I couldn't live without but on the whole I can't remember most. Same with vocabulary, I can't ever remember the words I want to use. I also missed the DOS era so when I learned computers it was GUI.

Also, my typing skills are horrid. While I am rather quick with my 3 finger method, I make lots of typos (some days I make little to none but not often) and it really pisses me off to re-type the same command or path half a dozen times. Pisses me off even more when a half hour later I can't remember what that command was.

Want to hear something funny? I wanted to try to learn scripting and Python. That didn't work out well at all.
 
Old 09-05-2004, 09:51 PM   #1748
DrNeil
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All I wanted to express is that it is I think an illusion that Windows is that much easier. Just a matter of choice really. Unix with all it's text based config, is easier actually in my opinion.

I mean you can at least make a list of command you need more often. If you forget there is .bash_history.

Under Windows a list has always to look like

Start-Cpanel_Users- etc.

You still gotta know the basics to administer both don't ya.

And in Windows you are more MS policy restricted.

I think it's harder to be a MS Sysadmin.
 
Old 09-06-2004, 06:32 AM   #1749
JZL240I-U
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Registered: Apr 2003
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrNeil
... My gf started out on a VAX in the old days. Unix is useable, also for beginners. ...
Shouldn't that be VMS -- not all good systems are *NIXes -- poor old DEC .
 
Old 09-06-2004, 01:48 PM   #1750
hoarenet
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Registered: Jun 2004
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Dear Brane Ded
Thanks for your reply but I was sort of writing tongue in cheek.

I suppose I find myself getting frustrated with Linux because expectations have been raised, by a variety of media and forums, to expect that Linux will be a better experience than Windows XXXXXXXX. It just isn't true yet. I appreciate a lot of people have put many man hours into getting it to the state it is now.

It seems that a lot of people, judging by most posts on this forum, who hate windows were used to something known as Windows 98/98SE. Both were full of problems that were never acknowleged by the media or MS. Running any compiler or program language would result in frequent crashes. Even a Microsoft product like Access would sometimes suffer the same fate. It would however always recover without major problems.

I take the point that Linux like Unix can be tweaked and fiddled with much better that Windows but most of the time I just want to turn on my PC to do mindless stuff like writing letters and email and looking for info about various subjects over a firewall protected connection to the internet. Linux just doesn't allow you to do that without a lot of fiddling with various files. The millions of postings to this excellent board bear witness to that.

Linux should really have a standard set of startup files that are the same in all distributions. At the moment it's not easy to learn what files do what as they have different names and if you don't have a very good memory then it is not something to be considered.

Internet connection should be very simple and aimed at someone non technical who is familiar with the windows setup as it's likely that your typical newbie will be from Win xxxx. That shouldn't be a problem as the same bits of software are required with either system. That way they will be able to get a little bit of confidence to go further with Linux.

Enough said and I wish Linux a lot of luck.
 
Old 09-08-2004, 10:49 AM   #1751
doublejoon
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Simply put.....Linux taught me how a computer actually works. I've learned so much just switching to linux. The other OS taught me how to point and click my mouse
 
Old 09-08-2004, 10:59 AM   #1752
gken69
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Registered: Aug 2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by DOUBLEJOON
Simply put.....Linux taught me how a computer actually works. I've learned so much just switching to linux. The other OS taught me how to point and click my mouse
True enough, but that doesn't make the experience of learning how to do routine things any less frustrating. I've been trying to get my Slackbox to connect to the network in my office for three weeks and I'm barely further along than when I started. I'm lucky in that I have a boss who can see the big picture and is willing to let me spend time at work dicking around with this, but most other people don't have that luxury.
 
Old 09-08-2004, 12:01 PM   #1753
egag
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hoi gken69, maybe put that Q. on the Slackware forum.... ( or have you done that already ??)

egag
 
Old 09-08-2004, 01:02 PM   #1754
gken69
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Thanks for the tip 'egag', I'm currently working that angle . . .
 
Old 09-14-2004, 08:18 PM   #1755
AAnarchYY
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After skimming through a few pages of this thread I've come to the conclusion that linux just isn't for everyone. It all depends on what you need it for and how much time you have to learn. If you don't want to learn, or don't have the time/patience then linux isn't for you. If you only want to sit in front of your PC and go on AOL or play Counter Strike or some crap like that, then linux is not for you. If you want it to "just work" instead of "work the way i want it to work", then linux is not for you. However, if you do want to learn(i LOVE learning ), then linux is your best choice.

I, personally, made the switch for a few reasons. One of the main reasons is that there is FAR too few configurations and 'tweaks' that can be done in windows, or the tweaks take an asinine amount of time and energy to change one stupid little thing(took me almost a day to figure out how to change that little "e" icon in the top of explorer to a specific .gif i wanted, and even after i figure it out, i had to chop up the gif into a string of frames and insert it into brouseui.dll or something like that).

When people say "linux is too hard", thats bull. Its not too hard, its just unfamiliar. I can do almost anything and more in linux than i can do in windows. I can do tons of nifty stuff on windows too. But if you put me in front of a mac, i wouldn't know my ass from my elbows. Its not because its hard, its because its unfamiliar. I don't know macs.

Also, some people say that hardware is very difficult to set up in linux. Ive found this to be untrue also. On a fresh install of a decent distro of linux(such as slack), almost everything you could need is already installed, all you have to do is a minor amount of configurations and everything jumps to life. A good example of this is what i had to do when i installed linux. I have a mn-510 usb wifi card. i didn't have a clue on how to set that up. So i went to the all-knowing google and typed in "mn-510 linux". after skimming over a few BB's and other sites, i came across a website that gave me detailed instructions on how to set it up. And after i downloaded the linux-wlan-ng package, i realized that the instructions on how to set it up are in the README file(they don't call it README for nothing, i wish some people would realize that). If your willing to look around a bit, put in a little effort, and learn(take notes, take MANY notes, i have a paper and pen handy at my desk at ALL times even still), then linux will do more for you than you would ever imagine. But maybe thats just my POV.

my

[/rant]
 
  


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