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Old 03-11-2021, 08:18 AM   #106
boughtonp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ////// View Post
just saw at news that astrazeneca vaccine probably causes blood clots.
denmark stopped vaccinating program with that variant of vaccine.
They have temporarily suspended to investigate the possibility - because it's better to err on the side of caution than be reckless.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-denmark/denmark-suspends-astrazeneca-covid-shots-for-two-weeks-after-blood-clot-reports-idUSKBN2B319K

Quote:
“It is currently not possible to conclude whether there is a link. We are acting early, it needs to be thoroughly investigated,” Health Minister Magnus Heunicke said
Quote:
Some health experts said there was little evidence to suggest the AstraZeneca vaccine should not be administered and that the cases of blood clots corresponded with the rate of such cases in the general population.

“This is a super-cautious approach based on some isolated reports in Europe,” Stephen Evans, professor of pharmacoepidemiology at the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine, told Reuters.
Quote:
[the European Medicines Agency] said the number of thromboembolic events - marked by the formation of blood clots - in people who have received the AstraZeneca vaccine is no higher than that seen in the general population, with 22 cases of such events being reported among the 3 million people who have received it as of March 9.
 
Old 03-11-2021, 08:23 AM   #107
//////
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boughtonp View Post
They have temporarily suspended to investigate the possibility - because it's better to err on the side of caution than be reckless.
thanks for clarifying that
 
Old 03-11-2021, 07:14 PM   #108
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I wonder what the probability of you getting a blood clot from taking the AstraZeneca shot is versus the probability of you getting Covid by not taking an AstraZeneca shot? There'll always be some sort of risk involved.

Maybe I should never cross a road again as there's a possibility I'll get hit by a bus?
Quote:
because it's better to err on the side of caution than be reckless.
Good Grief!

Oh! I had no after effects when I got my AstraZeneca shot.

Be safe, Play Bonny!

 
Old 03-12-2021, 01:44 AM   #109
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Just read about after-covid life. Well there is no such thing. Virus will stay forever with us. Even if pandemia will cease in coming two, three years (yes), it may as well reappear after say next fifteen years. With new strains, new illnesses etc. Just like any other virus. I think heard immunity is only something like in case of flu. But to reach this it may require generations. One hundred years? Perhaps even more. We wish our life back - but it is not possible.
 
Old 03-13-2021, 09:47 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soadyheid View Post
I wonder what the probability of you getting a blood clot from taking the AstraZeneca shot is versus the probability of you getting Covid by not taking an AstraZeneca shot? There'll always be some sort of risk involved.
https://www.stoptheclot.org/blood-cl...united-states/

Quote:
107 to 130 cases of potentially deadly blood clots occurred each year per 100,000 Caucasian individuals from 1985 through 2002. This translates into about 1 to 3 cases per 1,000 people.

[...]
Unprovoked (30% of all patients):

Absence of identifiable risk factor
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soadyheid View Post
Maybe I should never cross a road again as there's a possibility I'll get hit by a bus? Good Grief!
It's more like the trolley problem: it's "better" to let thousands of people die from covid rather than kill a few dozen with the vaccine.
 
Old 03-14-2021, 05:43 AM   #111
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AstraZeneca have been very good about stopping and investigating suspected reactions, and informing folks, whereas Pfizer has been more inclined to brush them aside with remarks like "People with severe allergies should not take this." It's certainly better for sales, if not for people.

The 'blood clots' have been investigated rapidly here in Europe, and everyone is resuming vaccinations with the Astrazeneca vaccine. Comparisons between the U.S & EU are not helpful and prove little as the food policies, techniques and standards are all tempting 'tangent bait.' But if we remember the last (closed) thread, and why it was closed, we'll keep this strictly on Covid.
 
Old 03-14-2021, 06:28 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
AstraZeneca have been very good about stopping and investigating suspected reactions, and informing folks, whereas Pfizer has been more inclined to brush them aside with remarks like "People with severe allergies should not take this." It's certainly better for sales, if not for people.
The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are made from naked RNA, something we have not seen or used before. The vaccine solution has to contain various chemicals that stabilise that RNA, so the risk of an allergic reaction is greater than for traditional vaccines like the AstroZeneca one which are based on living or dead viruses. On the other hand, RNA vaccines have the huge advantage that they can be quickly edited to cope with new variants.

So far, we have not had any real problems in this line and I don't expect any now but Pfizer were quite right to be cautious initially.

Last edited by hazel; 03-14-2021 at 06:30 AM.
 
Old 03-14-2021, 09:01 AM   #113
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@ ntubski
Not sure about your trolley quote:
Quote:
It's more like the trolley problem: it's "better" to let thousands of people die from covid rather than kill a few dozen with the vaccine.
Should that possibly read:
Quote:
It's more like the trolley problem: is it "better" to let thousands of people die from covid rather than kill a few dozen with the vaccine?
Maybe I'm missing something subtle in your post.
Interesting conundrum though!

Play Bonny!

 
Old 03-14-2021, 09:32 AM   #114
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The trolley problem is a famous ethical conundrum. A railway carriage has got loose and is thundering down the line towards a group of people. You can save them by switching the points, so that the trolley only crashes into one person. But most people will not deliberately sacrifice that one person. They seem to feel that it's better for more people to die because they just happened to be unlucky, than for fewer to be directly killed by their action.

Which I think is the point ntubski was making.

Last edited by hazel; 03-14-2021 at 09:37 AM.
 
Old 03-14-2021, 11:39 AM   #115
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Yes, that was pretty much my point, but there are a few more details:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
But most people will not deliberately sacrifice that one person. They seem to feel that it's better for more people to die because they just happened to be unlucky, than for fewer to be directly killed by their action.
This isn't the case (in theory at least, not like anybody could test it for real):

Quote:
The trolley problem has been the subject of many surveys in which about 90% of respondents have chosen to kill the one and save the five.
But there are some variants with different results:
Quote:
As before, a trolley is hurtling down a track towards five people. You are on a bridge under which it will pass, and you can stop it by putting something very heavy in front of it. As it happens, there is a very fat man next to you – your only way to stop the trolley is to push him over the bridge and onto the track, killing him to save five. Should you proceed?
Resistance to this course of action seems strong; when asked, a majority of people will approve of pulling the switch to save a net of four lives, but will disapprove of pushing the fat man to save a net of four lives.
I think this maps pretty well to the pandemic situation (although there is a lot more uncertainty about the outcomes). Death caused from lockdowns are much more indirect, so it seems fine to use lockdowns to save lives. Deaths from vaccines are relatively direct, so a lot more effort is made to avoid that, even at the risk of possibly letting more people die overall.
 
Old 03-14-2021, 11:57 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntubski View Post
Yes, that was pretty much my point, but there are a few more details:
...
I think this maps pretty well to the pandemic situation (although there is a lot more uncertainty about the outcomes). Death caused from lockdowns are much more indirect, so it seems fine to use lockdowns to save lives. Deaths from vaccines are relatively direct, so a lot more effort is made to avoid that, even at the risk of possibly letting more people die overall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntubski View Post
...
It's more like the trolley problem: it's "better" to let thousands of people die from covid rather than kill a few dozen with the vaccine.
Isn't that what one of the state governors were advocating somewhere in the US of A; let the old people die from covid to save the young or some such - ie. to avoid the lockdowns/restrictions? (I think it might have been the Texas governor from memory)
 
Old 03-14-2021, 12:50 PM   #117
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We remember Dr. Spock: (killing the one person) 'is logical,' surely. Why is it a conundrum?
 
Old 03-14-2021, 01:16 PM   #118
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Quote:
They seem to feel that it's better for more people to die because they just happened to be unlucky, than for fewer to be directly killed by their action.
Isn't this the same as saying you'd let more people die because you did nothing rather than being actually responsible for the death of one person by doing something?

That's why I see it as a conundrum. (= "a confusing and difficult problem or question". Ethically.)

Interesting...

Play Bonny!

 
Old 03-15-2021, 01:46 PM   #119
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Contradicting my last post: Apparently 3 people in Norway who had had the Astrazeneca shot died, so Europe has finally copped on and found another excuse to stop the vaccine rollout. Cue hand-wringing from Governments and serious words of caution from medics. Pass a grain of salt, pls.

A few have done a statistical check and decided there's nothing in it, and gone back to using the Astrazeneca shot. But the EU isn't Very 'U' on things like this so everyone is jumping through their own hoops. What makes it funny is that on Friday evening, our Taoiseach (pronounced 'Tee-shockh') was grilling the Astrazeneca boss on why we were getting so few shots, and on Sunday they stopped using that vaccine.
 
Old 03-16-2021, 08:57 AM   #120
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I can't help but wonder if this negative reaction to AstaZeneca was caused by some devious troll plan from a pharma competitor or Anti-Vax nutcases. The percentage of people likely to develop clotting under ANY circumstances (like diet) is 1/1000. So to transpose that number to reflect the number of AstraZeneca "clotters" (37) we should expect 37/37,000. In fact the number of "clotters" compared to those who've received AstraZeneca is roughly 37/17,000,000. Have the worry warts never heard of "betting with the odds"? I suspect some who are worried about the vaccine, do so while eating unhealthy diets and lacking in exercise. That'd be like me, a smoker, worrying that it could cause cancer or a heart attack.
 
  


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