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Lysander666 01-27-2021 09:52 AM

COVID topic redux
Before I start on this, I should mention that it appears the other topics are being closed because of irrelevant xenophobic and political rants.

If this goes the same way, it will be put out of its misery. However, this pandemic is not going anywhere soon so threads on it are inevitable, it's all about how [and which] users decide to contribute.

The reason why I opened this is because business_kid made a post which I think it's very important to publicly address:


My son is Covid skeptic. He's not thinking covid doesn't exist. He thinks it's overplayed. A large number of reputed doctors argue this likewise. He's not on his own. I don't agree with him, but I have to admit he has a valid viewpoint. Covid deaths are outnumbered by: Annual Deaths from suicide; Annual deaths from 'flu, and many other causes. Covid is way down the list. Of the Covid deaths in the elderly, he simply asks 'Were they healthy people who were taken down by Covid, or were they people near death anyhow? In some cases, people with advanced diagnoses (e.g. incurable cancer) died with Covid. The cause of death isn't investigated, if they test positive, it's put down as a Covid death. And now there's death by vaccination against Covid.
I think it's necessary to mention a few things. The reason why COVID is so important to be wary of in comparison to e.g. flu is that it is highly infectious [one could even say increasingly infectious dependent on the strain] and it has a steep pathway, i.e. it can be a very short amount of time between contracting the virus and death. Also, it's hard to predict how the virus will treat someone - someone in their 60s who's smoked all their life can get away with a cough, someone else in the 20s with no underlying conditions can die. It's very unpredictable [though not totally, by any means] and there's still lots we don't know about it.

Secondly the deaths of the elderly point. We are seeing more and more people who are healthy, with no underlying conditions, being killed, so everyone is at risk. And yes, people with terminal cancer can contract COVID and it is listed as a COVID death. The reason for this is simple - reduction of life expectancy. People with terminal cancer are normally given a set amount of time to live and this is drastically reduced if they contract COVID, and they are robbed of their remaining months [i.e they would have survived for longer if not for the virus]. This happened to a family friend - he had terminal cancer and was given a few months to live, he then got COVID just before Christmas and only lasted a few days. In retrospect, it was better that he died of COVID since it is a quicker, less painful death than dying of a cancerous brain tumour [the lesser of two evils though].

Unfortunately, as with many COVID skeptics [and even deniers] it's very difficult to change their minds until someone they know dies with it and/or they see first-hand its effects. The "death by vaccination" point was covered in the previous thread [in short, and crudely, it's inevitable with all vaccines because of allergies]. Additionally, it's not 'just' about death - one can survive the virus but still be left without a sense of taste and/or with breathing difficulties for months afterwards; the cases of 'long COVID' are evermore rolling in.

I think it's sad how much misinformation there is about this. Being skeptical is fine, but keeping an open mind is important. Hopefully this topic will go productively [though I don't hold out much hope].

KDSR 01-27-2021 10:28 AM

No Rant Here...
Covid is being Over Played....Every day more People are Dying from... drug overdose, suicide, DUI crashes, gang shootings, Heart attacks, Strokes, accidental drownings, accidental falls, Children being left in Hot/Cold vehicles, Homeless People sleeping outside and Freezing..etc,etc,... I could go on and on......IE Volcano eruptions, Earthquakes, Floods, Tornadoes, Hurricanes,........ This so-called Covid emergency is way over played.

Lysander666 01-27-2021 10:29 AM

Oh dear. At least I tried.

brianL 01-27-2021 10:36 AM


Originally Posted by KDSR (Post 6212633)
... I could go on and on...

Don't bother. That's enough nonsense for one post.

jsbjsb001 01-27-2021 10:42 AM

Since I can't respond to your post in the other covid thread Lysander666...


Very interesting thread. Mixture of fact, speculation, insults and fearmongering. Typical LQ.
Agreed... sadly.


I had my Pfizer jab at the beginning of last week. No side effects apart from a slightly sore arm that lasted about 24 hours. When I was there, St Thomas's Hospital in London, there was a marquee vaccination centre and they farmed the vaccinees in and out. It wasn't rushed. It took 30 mins per person, which included 15 minutes post-vaccination monitoring. It was very well organised indeed. A lot of people have been vaccinated here already, millions. I know several colleagues who have had the Pfizer jab with no side effects. A couple of Oxfords too, including one who received it last June as part of the trials - who interesting enough recently got COVID but it didn't hit him hard [maybe as a result of the vaccine, who knows], he said the worst thing was the fatigue. And to those who say, "people have died as a result of the vaccine", yes, this happens with any vaccine, unfortunately. It mostly happens because people are allergic to one or more of the ingredients - however, before you get your Pfizer jab they tell you what's in it so you can identify anything you're allergic to. But what of those ingredients you don't know you're allergic to? If you're a few decades in, you're more than likely to have a good idea of what you're allergic to or not.

I was given a handout before the jab [which I still have] telling me what was in it, and what side effects I could possibly expect.
...and as I said to you in my PM to you: Thanks for some actual factual info, aka, [redacted] opinion! As here in Oz, they've only just approved a vaccine (can't remember exactly which one, but one of them anyways), so I was wondering about the safety and effectiveness of them. To be clear, I'm not opposed to taking one, as long as it's safe and effective. Thanks again for the factual info, instead of the usual [redacted] we sadly see here!

And nice to see you again too!

igadoter 01-27-2021 10:49 AM

My advise - if I can - to business_kid would be to talk and do not give up. My own story is about person close to me - at the beginning she didn't even believe virus exists! Now we made some progress. She accepts virus existence but as business_kid son she downplays it with the same arguments. But I don't give up. And I learned I need to be very careful, to avoid to feel her to be under pressure. So I try to listen to her and take seriously - and discuss. It was not easy for me to learn this. But patience works.

cynwulf 01-27-2021 11:16 AM

These threads will ultimately continue to fail and degenerate into offtopic rants, unless posters can grasp the basics of respecting differing opinions - without resorting to ad hominem. Until then they will continue to be locked.

hazel 01-27-2021 11:40 AM

This post was originally going into the other thread and is a partial answer to Business_Kid. By the time I had finished it, the thread was closed!

The Spanish Flu was before my time but I can remember the Asian and Hong Kong Flu pandemics. I had Asian Flu quite badly. Like covid, they had a high death rate, mostly among the old, but I honestly don't remember this degree of panic. In those days, people liked to quote that biblical phrase about threescore years and ten. When someone much older than that died, people said, "Well, her time had obviously come." And so of course there was no question of the NHS being overwhelmed, because sick old people weren't carted off to hospital and put on ventilators. That may sound heartless, and you might think I would feel differently now that I am old myself, but actually I don't.

My greatest dread is not dying but getting demented and being put in a home. I think most of the people I know personally who are in my age group feel the same way. Some of you may remember my dog, Roger. He was a registered PAT dog and for years we paid weekly visits together to a local residential home that was actually one of the better ones. The staff at least were kind, which is not always the case. But I always came home depressed by the state of the people upstairs in the locked dementia ward.

So maybe we should subtract from that 100,000 a rather large number of people for whom death may have been a merciful release.

DavidMcCann 01-27-2021 12:08 PM

What about the people who are not at the end of their life but who have suffered damage from COVID? There are an estimated 60,000 in the UK requiring long-term treatment.

hazel 01-27-2021 12:56 PM

A good point. Death rates are not everything. But they are what the media prefer to concentrate on.

ondoho 01-27-2021 02:08 PM

I guess one might say that it is being overplayed - but overplaying isn't necessarily distorting things, it's not necessarily wrong.
In the last decades the (so-called civilised or sometimes western) world has gotten used to living without the threat of serious contagious disease. After humanity battled for centuries, until epidemic became a thing of history books and the "3rd world" (sorry for using these terms, I'm just trying to make it quick).

Considering most people just don't relate to this anymore, isn't it right to "overplay" it?

Personally, I am glad that these more effective mutations are showing up after the general public has been made aware through months and months of "overplaying".

That said, I'm not particularly keen on this constant comparing of numbers both politics and media are so keen on...

business_kid 01-28-2021 12:38 PM

Little gets through to my son, although he follows restrictions and doesn't rock the boat.

Something considered a good measure of actual mortality is excess deaths = how many more deaths are going on besides what would be expected?

In Ireland, the figures are about the same as the average year. England lopped a lump off their Covid death statistics when they factored in Covid, but it isn't that simple.

In a lockdown, Road accidents plummet, but suicide & family violence rise. Flu deaths are much lower - nearly nil. But people loath to go to hospital with possible cancer/heart attacks, or strokes can have much worse outcomes. Doctors stop doing the non-essential operations, so those deaths temporarily drop. Industrial Accident deaths drop, and fewer drownings. Less food for hungry sea creatures in places like Oz where those things happen and there's a lockdown. Add your own variations. Gangland has gone quieter here. So there's a completely different set of statistics, so valid comparison isn't possible.

Presuming keeping people alive is the goal, How many people are going to die of various causes in penniless economies, or bankrupt countries? And I agree 100% with Hazel the last thing I would want is some version of Samuel Taylor Coleridge's "Life in Death." {"Life in Death" - well I'll let you read the Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner}.

rokytnji 01-28-2021 04:12 PM

In my experience. Misery loves company and sounds incoherent because it is.

One shot down.

One to go. I am good till the end of Feb.

There was no waiting in line.
There were no costs.
They just took my drivers licence info for the CDC and that was it.
My shoulder was not sore.
Just got back from 150 mile round trip to pick up a tool box and give a machine shop a ring gear.
Hafta go back to get the rest of my new tool box and pick up my machined gear.

No black outs. Nothing. Only thing I wish. I wish this vaccine would have took away my hay fever.

To the deniers. You cannot enter a building in my one horse town without a mask.
Yeah. I am gonna keep mine handy till all this blows over.
My masks consist of old t-shirt sleeves cut off in my rag bin.
Look official, they do.

rokytnji 01-28-2021 04:22 PM

Meh. I was gonna edit mine but oh well.

I aint afeared of death. My life style is proof of this. <lifetime on 2 wheels>

But when you hear people stay sick in certain covid cases for long term.
I've been long term cripple and did not enjoy that.
It's boring.

If wearing a mask and getting a shot helps me avoid of being maybe a long term patient. Win win, I say.

This virus not only kills you. It attacks your organs also.

rtmistler 01-28-2021 04:38 PM

I know there's a lot of differing opinions, but I started wearing masks last year at the beginning of this, and have no problems with it. Since I've been working from home 100% the whole time and we've been told it will go to at least July, if not further, what I CAN say is that I've not caught the normal flu/cold that hits many people every Fall season or during the Winter. I like that! And of course my mask wearing time hasn't been huge, only if I go get groceries. Eating out doesn't exist, and it may never come back for me, at least at home.

I have travelled during the last 4 months, on a plane, and spent several days in public, in buildings, with numerous other people. We all wore masks, the hotels left info about how they cleaned and they do not clean while you're there unless you request it. They also had their restaurants shut down and you had to get delivery or go get take-out, we couldn't even have food there for a meeting/gathering, no way, so we had to break for lunches and disperse. While it was a nuisance to continually wear a mask, I did it, we all did, and had zero problems with it. But you see lots of people walking around with their noses out or just not wearing masks at all sometimes, especially at the airport. You get mad that they do this, but I'm not going to make some case about it. I do feel bad for the people who have to get involved, like airline persons, or store persons. Since I travelled with three other persons, we had our own row with no third traveler on either side. Nobody got sick, two people got tested because they wanted or needed to and they were negative. Also the hotel had those hand sanitizer stations which squirt sanitizer as you put your hand under them. Got into the habit of using those a lot. I'm not normally the person who does that, but figured it can't hurt and I'd say, with the mask and the hand sanitizers around, you tend to keep your hands to yourself. Even if you scratch your face, you're not, because the mask is in the way.

This all passes, I'm not going to be Mr. Hand Sanitizer, but if I find myself catching common colds a lot next Fall/Winter, ... I don't know, probably will add that as a habit during risky times. I'm old, but not old enough to merit any vaccination timeframe except the last group, so I'll get it, when everyone can get it. I really don't know firsthand, anyone who caught it, just extended friends, some did pass away from it, yes many of them had other medical conditions. I look at it as just like the flu, the very old are more at risk, and this appears to be easier to catch. No idea if those who carry it, are asymptomatic can cause infections for people at risk, but not interested in exploring that.

business_kid, yes my son has probably similar opinions with yours, but he works at a grocery store and has to follow their rules, so he does.

And I think you're making a lot of good points, less traffic, less accidents, and as I say, less people exposure, less passing around of common colds.

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