I suspect, rkelsen, that your question is rhetorical since the equation is right in Dale Carnegie's "How To Win Friends and Influence People" (effectively a sales manual).

1) Establish a need, something currently lacking
2) Get the other (the vic? the mark?) to agree to the need
3) Now you can offer a solution
4) Close the deal

IOW, you can't sell "Make America Great Again" unless you establish it has lost ground first... unless you just sell an empty slogan instead. There are a number of interesting interview videos of MAGA supporters at Trump rallies being asked "When was America greater than it is today?" Not one has a solid answer. They just re-spout the slogan. Sundialsvcs is a bit more sophisticated and learned than the average MAGA believer since he actually resorts to real Spin Doctoring.

Considering that once Democrats took up the "Immigration Problem", every proposal has been met with essentially what amounts to derailment or veto so the Dems don't get any credit for fixing the "problem" (actually just one example of many) is somehow twisted into "America First" when actually all about Party, which still in 2024, is all about The Donald. It's quite literally "1984" level Doublespeak. Utter bullshit! (and I'm being vulgar because that is the most polite and lenient way to describe it.

How these folks can't see (or refuse to admit) that Trump's recent threat of "a bloodbath" should he not be re-elected, is not only evidence of zero accountability for January 6, but actually upping the ante.

Without apparently even giving it much thought, @enorbet, you are right now spewing out the garbage that has tried to turn "Make America Great Again" into: "an acronym on a red hat." Literally, "just a slogan."

Let me teach you a little "history lesson." The one that your father or your grandfather apparently never taught you ...

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I now want you to right now watch this video, and tell me where this "Arsenal of Democracy," that was utterly taken for granted in the 1940's, vanished to.

When people still refer to "America" as "Great," they are actually referring directly to this memory. And, it is certainly not an illusion. It is most especially not: "an acronym on a red hat."

Eighty years ago, "America" could quite-literally manufacture every thing that it needed to pursue a World War. Starting with iron ore and bauxite that it mined. All of those aircraft, all of those "Liberty Ships," all of those weapons, were quite-literally "built here." The German Navy could not torpedo all of them, because they ran out of torpedoes.

And – fast-forward past eighty years of national stupidity – the conundrum that both the USA and the UK are right-now facing is literally(!): impotence.

Meanwhile, "Russia," who did not dismantle its industrial capacity, is very-calmly doing as we(!) once did ... "to win a Real War."

The Russian commander who asks for 4,000 artillery shells "to be delivered tomorrow" can have his order filled. Just like our soldiers once could.

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Maybe "MAGA" is still just "a perjorative slogan" to you. But it is not to many millions of Americans (and others, throughout the world ...) who still remember.

Fundamentally: "modern war" is a contest of general industrial production. Therefore, if you do not "very-clearly have that," your nation is not secure.

When(!) "actual War" breaks out again, this entire nation will be faced with the prophetic words once said by "their cheap global supplier." "The Greatest Art of War is to defeat your enemy without fighting him."

And: there are millions of citizens in this world who understand this. They have read history books. They know.

@enorbet: In my town, as no doubt in yours, there are columns and various other memorials which speak of: "The(!) Great War."

The utter catastrophe which befell the world at the beginning of the 20th Century was supposed to be: "The War to End All Wars." But, less than forty years later, it wasn't.

Of course you might have noticed that "the subsequent 'eighty years'" have been ... shall I say ... "curiously(!) peaceful." Did this ever arouse "your curiosity?"

Is there anything that I can possibly say to you ... to stop you thinking about "Red Hats" and to make you genuinely afraid? To stop thinking as one poor Fool did, when he pronounced to his countrymen that he had just secured "Peace for Our Time" when faced with Adolf Hitler?

What our enemies have succeeded in doing is to de-industrialize their opponents. Both in the USA and in the UK, simultaneously. And to teach their opponents to "shop at [X]" without ever considering where the things they're buying now come from. You call them citizens. We call them sitting ducks.

In the grand strategy, "eighty years" is really not long to wait for a decisive victory that will now give you vast new territories of real-estate to conquer. No one will even remember "the Nation that used to be there."

Except: for hundreds of millions of actual people, "it is not 'an acronym.'"

And, "a few thousand lawyers," when the sh&t actually begins to hit, are not going to have retirement benefits. Yes, "it's not nice" to lead a nation where they have gone.

Maybe ask black people about "eighty years ago" in the US? Or is that part of the "great"...?

"Opponents" did not de-industrialise the US or UK - capitalism and greed did that. Businesses have had a simple choice for many decades now - build products at home and pay fair wages, or get products built abroad, imported, drive down wages and increase margins. They have mostly chosen the latter, because that's why businesses exist - to enrich a few individuals through the exploitation of labour (the many).

Recent stats of US military spending vs other countries. Doesn't really corroborate your claims. Your country has vast reserves of funding for weapons, but not a free for all health service for example. Familiar story.

https://www.pgpf.org/chart-archive/0...nse-comparison

Your "enemies" spend a fraction.

MAGA is just the latest slogan, which multi millionaires and billionaires political elites have come up with for electioneering purposes. It's "false populism" in action, the politics of division pitting one disadvantaged part of society against another.

Reminds me of this: http://www.quickmeme.com/img/6c/6c28...7f7f9d4c20.jpg

And it's still very much the case - these political elites laugh at the idiots who put them in power over and over again.

I just making comment:
That was a horrible period for some, but that period has nothing to do with me, and probably has nothing to do with most people in year 2024. Punishing those actually responsible for that period, should be applauded. There's plenty of video of Joe Biden bad mouthing Justice Thomas because he's a black man, and I am 100% certain Justice Thomas has not forgotten about that.

I guess I am not sure what context do you mean peaceful? Thankful there has not been another World war but in the last 80 years the US has been involved in a few wars like Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Indonesia, Lebanon, Dominican Republic, Cambodia, Grenada, Libya, Iraq, Panama, Gulf War and Somali just to name a few. There have been plenty of other civil wars or conflicts that the US has not been involved with too.

OK, let's talk about bauxite, since you specifically mentioned it.

You are quite correct when you say that US extraction of bauxite peaked during WW2. In fact, during 1943, the rate of extraction surpassed 6 million tons/year.

However, there are some other facts which must be included in this conversation. The first, and most critical, is that bauxite is a finite resource of which the US is almost completely tapped out. At the current rate of extraction, there's approximately a 200 year supply remaining. At 1943 levels of extraction, that same amount of supply would have lasted 3-and-a-bit years.

The second thing is that your country buys bauxite from my country at the rate of approximately $15 (USD) per metric ton. The stuff you get from us is around 6% of the total amount you import, but many of the other sources are... shall we say... "somewhat less developed" than us... and therefore likely even cheaper. Never underestimate the power of corporate greed, especially when it comes to cutting costs. At this point, I think it should also be noted that the US offers its own bauxite for sale on the global market at a rate exceeding $700/ton.

The third thing is that you can't take the rate of bauxite extraction itself out of context, beginning with the fact that war brought with it a specific set of needs. Extraction was increased simply because those materials were needed for the rapid production of machines and artillery at volumes which are not required during times of peace. The 1943 rate of bauxite extraction was 16 times higher than the 1939 rate.

For more context: "The crisis of World War II led Congress to pass four excess profits statutes between 1940 and 1943. The 1940 rates ranged from 25 to 50 percent and the 1941 ones from 35 to 60 percent. In 1942, a flat rate of 90 percent was adopted, with a postwar refund of 10 percent; in 1943 the rate was increased to 95 percent, with a 10 percent refund." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_profits_tax

The question I have for you is precisely what do you think Mr. Trump is going to do to improve things in relation to the rate of bauxite extraction in your country? Would he ever increase the corporate tax rate to an effective rate of 85% as it was in 1943? Will he increase excise on imported bauxite? Will he do anything at all which could lead to increased costs for corporations?

Yeah, that aligns with what we see from here.
He's already out there damaging international relations, and he isn't even in power yet: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-...view/103608274

Bauxite is important but in a WWW scenario the term 'subeconomic' is less meaningful.

"World Resources:
6 Bauxite resources are estimated to be between 55 billion and 75 billion tons, distributed in Africa (32%), Oceania (23%), South America and the Caribbean (21%), Asia (18%), and elsewhere (6%). Domestic resources of bauxite are inadequate to meet long-term U.S. demand, but the United States and most other major aluminum-producing countries have essentially inexhaustible subeconomic resources of aluminum in materials other than bauxite.

Substitutes:
Bauxite is the only raw material used in the production of alumina on a commercial scale in the United States. Although currently not economically competitive with bauxite, vast resources of clay are technically feasible sources of alumina. Other raw materials, such as alunite, anorthosite, coal wastes, and oil shales, offer additional potential alumina sources. Synthetic mullite, produced from kaolin, bauxitic kaolin, kyanite, and sillimanite, substitutes for bauxite-based refractories. Silicon carbide and alumina zirconia can substitute for alumina and bauxite in abrasives but cost more." https://pubs.usgs.gov/periodicals/mc...te-alumina.pdf

Duly noted, but the point I was trying to make.

My point is that the period where America was supposedly great, estimated by sundialsvcs to be ~ "80 years ago", wasn't necessarily great for everyone or in very way, if it were "great" at all or indeed "greater" than it is at present.

The MAGA seem to propose to return to the past, when America was supposedly "great", but with no real policies or plans. It seems to me like "dog whistle politics" for white supremacy. Maybe it isn't, but it draws in the white supremacist voter, regardless, who will see it as such. Whatever it is, it's "divide and conquer".

In the UK we saw the similar propaganda machine in action, with some familiar names involved, when the establishment sold us Brexit, as a means of regaining independence from the EU, taking back control of our laws, fisheries, agricultural policies, etc - and of course blocking further immigration. We were also sold Brexit on the promise, in so many words, that it would make Britain "great again". That was patently false, but people fall for these tactics all the time. People in general fail spectacularly to identify that when one of the super rich elites is trying to sell an idea or a certain kind of politics, it's because there's something in it for them, not for you.

As a nation, the USA and much of the EU voluntarily dismantled their domestic industrial base. They stopped producing things for themselves because "buying them from somewhere else was 'cheaper.'" But they never seriously thought through the national security implications of what they were doing. What was once one of the most powerful industrial economies on this planet ... turned into greeters at Wal-Mart. (Various groups from time to time have staged foot-races at Wal-Marts. Your task is to run through the store and bring back anything that is, start to finish, "Made in USA," and costs more than $10. You can do a lot of running and still come up empty-handed.)

"National Security?" Yes. Because you have entirely given away your "plan B." If something were to happen to all those endless imports – such as, say, declaring war on China or simply doing something they don't approve of in Taiwan – you don't have an alternative to replace it. Reasonable businessmen could cancel their contracts and order their fleet of container ships to return home immediately, calling it a prudent business decision. Which it would be. Now, it would take you many years of privation to build an alternative system of supply for even the most basic of things ... if you can even find trained workers who are able and willing to run the plants. Our "just in time" import-dependent systems would grind to a stop within a matter of hours or days: there is no "Plan B."

Yes, it is sometimes advantageous to import things. But never at the exclusion of your ability to produce these things also. We used to use "tariffs" and other import/export controls to ensure that our own domestic industrial capability remained in place. And, we had a reputation of producing high-quality products that other countries wanted to buy. When WW2 came, we had the industry and the industrial know-how that could be converted to massive war production.

The present situation in Ukraine is a stark example of this folly. Russia didn't dismantle its industry and rely on imports. Therefore, they can and do produce the materials that they need, in the quantities required. In other words, they still have the ability to do what we also once could do, but can do no more. Their opponents, meanwhile, are experiencing "the great sucking sound" regarding their inventory of stuff which typically costs several million dollars per unit. As various belligerent countries in "NATO" contemplate actually doing what their not-so-defensive alliance was designed to do, they'd better stop and consider extremely carefully how this would actually turn out. "You're not Rocky Balboa anymore. Hell, you're not really even Terry Malloy." Could you actually be "a contendah?" Stop and think. You're going up against a first-class industrial nation, and you are not one. Anymore.

And, neither are we. "Two weeks in" and you're running out of ... everything.

So: "Make America Great Again" is not simply an acronym on a hat. It very much has to do with bringing meaningful industrial and manufacturing capability back home. Recognizing, yes, that it is a national security and integrity issue.

There you go again: "another trope." This time it's the "white supremacist." And, "the poor, downtrodden black man."

No one is denying what the Civil Rights movement attempted to change. Nor the cold reality that there is still a long way to go. But, these terms that are so-easily bantered about are "straw men." They are tropes.

Those who want this country to become "Great again" are not yearning for what was the case sixty or eighty years ago – except for one very important thing. We had robust, meaningful industry, and it was "right here." We were not "waiting for the ship to come in from somewhere else" so that we could manufacture a typewriter. Today, as I alluded to earlier, you can walk throughout almost any store and you will not find "Made in USA," except possibly for very-final assembly of only-imported parts.

And this is a very dangerous situation for any nation of any size to find itself in. Because, sooner or sooner, "something is going to go wrong in this world." And, not everybody out there – who might be supplying things to you – is actually very nice. They can very plainly see how to hit you where it hurts ... no matter how many warships you still have. Call it: "unconventional warfare."

Except it's not. Read the claims on his campaign website (which prominently features a shop selling red caps), and lets reconvene at the end of his term to see if he actually drained the swamp or smashed the cartels for example...

Yes a mere slogan somewhat like "Remember the Maine!" a spin doctored event created by The Hearst media which became somewhat of a blueprint for future events like Gulf of Tonkin, and Iraq's WMDs, all of them just drum-beating on falsehoods to justify war. "Stop the Steal" is another but that one is a war on democracy, replacing elections with a literal Trump family dynasty. There are actually MAGA posters and T-Shirts outlining the order of succession. I'd say "garbage", as you've outlined it, is misplaced.


I watched it and really there is nothing new in it for me since my Father, who fought in the Battle of the Bulge and marched into a concentration camp, was generally rather quiet most of the time despite sometimes waking up in the middle of the night yelling and punching the air. He told me a few things but it was obviously so profoundly disturbing I researched on my own to try to grasp what he'd gone through.

I know you think 9/11 was an inside job, and we disagree on that, but I suspect it is much easier to find the facts that thousands of people, men and women, signed up for many months after, just like my Father had in WWII, despite that the cause in WWII was vastly more clear. I don't see great change, let alone loss, in defenders of democracy then vs/ now.

I can only speak for myself but it is not based on memory of WWII era patriotism on my part.

The top nations of the world have all reduced dependence on an Industrial economy to embrace one based in IT. Not only can many manufacturing jobs be accomplished by the ever growing robotics and 3D Printing industry (for better AND for worse) but cyber warfare is absolutely crucial now and will only increase in importance. Had the US locked down into a 1950s style economy we'd be screwed. By almost every meaningful metric, we are WAY better off in 2024 than we were in 1954.

It isn't across the board (and it never has been.. it's not simply binary - Good vs Bad) and we are still stumbling a bit to find the best path in a new world since computing changed virtually everything and I will suggest to you that you read Alvin Tofler's book (he's also the acclaimed author of "Future Shock") "The Third Wave" which outlines major paradigm changes in human history - Hunter/Gatherer to Agrarian, Agrarian to Industrial, and Industrial to Information.

It's not simply pejorative. It's a 3 Card Monty scam perpetrated by Elites against "The Great Unwashed" who, those who buy the scam anyway, see as loss of greatness that no longer is it White Male Christians in the "catbird seat" and everyone else mere subjects. For one reference example among many, in 1960 my Mother could not have a checking account in her name, despite that she worked a full time job as well as being a homemaker and great Mother to us, her children.

I think that my key position is quite defensible: that it is utterly indefensible to have "a nation of 335 million people" so utterly dependent on "imports." Such that it has literally abandoned focus on the essential need for domestic manufacturing capability. For instance, the day may well come when ... for whatever geo-political reason ... "all of those imports have stopped." Where are you now going to get – wrenches? those "just in time" key components for countless local production lines? underwear and socks?

As "advantageous" as it might seem to be to simply purchase what you need from another nation (where labor costs are cheaper?), you must never do so to such a degree that "you are left with no other option should conditions unexpectedly change." But, this is precisely what we have done.

A few years ago, a domestic manufacturer wanted to start making and selling shoes. But he soon realized that none of the supporting infrastructure was available "domestically." A shoe-factory used to be surrounded by a spider-web of other businesses who sold what the shoe-factory needed. He closed his business, finally admitting that, at least at that point in time, if the import system fell apart, Americans would be walking barefoot for the foreseeable future.

So – when you hear people talking about "Make America Great Again," please start thinking about that. Not a slogan on a hat. Because the present situation is actually quite desperate. Regardless of the "multi-gadzillion-dollar Tom Swiftie weapons" we may still possess, we are basically naked in this respect. And, our enemies know it. We cannot call our nation "secure" if we quite-literally cannot domestically manufacture our own screwdrivers.

Every nation who competes to import products to "us(A)" should understand that they are competing with a vibrant (and protected ...) domestic industry that could be self-sufficient if it needed to be.