You can absolutely choose to disagree with facts.

I already mentioned that the unauthorized possession of the materials was not the question.

You seem to be struggling to understand that?

So be it. Biden knew he had classified info as early as 2017 and he shared it with a person with no clearence: (Page 11) Emphasis mine. We don't know how much more he leaked because the ghostwriter destroyed some of the tapes.

I've tried explaining the legal concepts behind the special investigator's findings.

You ignore them, so I'll stop. Goodbye.

I consider the concentration on attacking the other Party merely a distraction against having nothing positive to offer... OR, and far more dangerously for all of "we peasants", as a distraction against the REAL agendas of any Party. All that remains is to determine who has the better record of making promises they actually bother to keep and of course, if those (if any) changes actually benefited society as a whole moving forward.

Have a good day - or is it night there, either way good bye.

Agreed.

Re: Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
...All that remains is to determine who has the better record of making promises they actually bother to keep and of course, if those (if any) changes actually benefited society as a whole moving forward.

Agreed? So does this signal a change in your efforts in "owning the Libs" to considerations for advances made by the modern Republican Party, even before we discuss their deviation, or perceived deviation, from Traditional Conservative Values?

In that vein, and also since you love History, I'm interested in your views on The Federalists and the Anti-Federalists during the founding of Our Nation, or even just Patrick Henry vs/ Alexander Hamilton.

Start a thread delineating your views on the subject and I'll probably participate.

The great majority of the posts I've made in this thread are quotes sourced from the Special Prosecutors report. The fact that 'Libs' as you call them have a different view is not my problem.

This thread is now very seriously wandering off course, into “the land of the abstract.”

The actual criminal offense is quite clear. But, in a world of “Lawfare,” it doesn’t matter. The Law doesn’t matter, because The Law is a cudgel. “Your political opponent” will be locked in a prison cell which features a tomb. But “your man, or woman,” gets a pass. And this is all being done in the full view of more than 335 million people. By a group of less than one thousand, who all live in a “privilege bubble.”

Amazingly, none of “this thousand” seem to think that there is anything “wrong” at all. The ends justify the means. And, anyone whose life is destroyed “deserved it,” because they dared to disagree. Obviously, these people never read the darkest pages of human history, now being “doomed to repeat it.”

I’m simply going to say that I hope that “may you live in interesting times” isn’t a curse. Because, all of us right now are living in the times that generations of future historians are going to be writing PhD dissertations about.

The only wandering I see is the following litany of an attempt at obfuscation along typical MAGA lines in order to equate Biden's actions with Trump's, despite the simple fact that there is indeed a difference if only between reading some lines from a classified document and leaving many lying around in a public place. That alone should be a serious wrinkle in such thinking.


"Quite clear" to whom? What seems clear to me is that the Senate is heavily influenced if not controlled by the MAGA right, a near QAnon man is Speaker of the House, and SCOTUS is very publicly and obviously deeply MAGA or Roe V Wade would not have been overturned to name just one landmark decision. So, let's see, Legislative and Judicial...2 out of 3 ain't bad, eh? Those same right wing courts have made as a matter of record the substantial differences between Biden's actions and Trump's but that simply isn't far enough for MAGA, much as "Hang Pense" (complete with constructed scaffold) was fair by MAGA reckoning. Anything less is outrageous to those who've drunk the KoolAid..

Here's a possibly (and rather dark) Historical event to compare and contrast with for portent - The Beer Hall Putsch .

The National Socialist German Workers’ Party likely didn't plan on it since they more likely thought or at least hoped "The Munich (Beer Hall) Putsch" would succeed as revolution, but the results actually were the trials and incarcerations provided fame and a platform for National Socialists to rant about existing flaws, place blame elsewhere, and propose remedies (Make Germany Great Again) while spreading the propaganda that would later elect "Shickelgruber" into the office of Chancellor. While incarcerated Adolf dictated "Mein Kampf" to Maurice and Hess which became a best selling book (at least in and around Germany) that made him a millionaire in 1920s money. Even if William Shirer's quip was accurate that in early 1920s Germany "it took a bushel basket of marks to buy a loaf of bread" a multi-millionaire could fill a helluva lot of baskets.

A philosophical, if rambling, book is a bit classier than gold sneakers and bobbleheads of Trump's head on Rambo's body but I figure it's a pretty safe bet that if a similar set of events is successful, The Donald will claim it was all planned out by him from the beginning, with only a slight nod to one of his heroes.

If I may suggest, @enorbet, to you "The Donald" is beginning to become a symbolic target. "Gold sneakers and bobbleheads, etcetera?" Did you really consider what you were just saying?

IMHO, what we are actually experiencing is: "a sea change." It is therefore much bigger than "The Donald," although he is presently a symbol of it. We are right-now experiencing the decline of a former political order which was founded in the early 1950's with the end of WW2 and the emergence of the "atomic bomb." But, this "former political order" was also very-much based on a general industrial capacity that we very-simply gave away ... to our future enemies. The proponents of this "[former] political order" are still drunk on the idea of "United States Dollars" which they can simply manufacture. Endlessly.

"May you live in interesting times." Like it or not, we are all here. It is happening before our eyes, and we don't know how the game will end. But maybe, at least, "future historians" will document that "at the time, we, also, were aware of it."

I fully agree, sundialsvcs, that these are "interesting times" in the curse-iest sense of the term, and also that the change in the Republican Party, at the very least in it's sales pitch, is bigger than Trump.

However from my POV this is a Bait and Switch sales game in a bid for extreme power in the hands of the Elite and the Working Class is the "Mark" in that con. I don't see decline necessarily. I see adjustment which is what makes the US Constitution rather special. For example, entire economies were built on or shored up by Slavery and essentially no rights for Women, yet our Constitution survived the change to Universal Equality. Even though it has yet to become truly Universal and truly Equal, it does keep getting better. It's just slow.

It's one of the reasons I mentioned Federalists and Anti-Federalists. There wouldn't even BE a Bill of Rights had elitist Alexander Hamilton had his 'druthers, though calling themselves Federalists was a brilliant ploy that although not 100% effective, the ripples still wash on our shores. Another reason I brought them up was the similarities between "Federalist" a misnomer if there ever was one but it made potent propaganda, and MAGA. Just as it forced the less elite philospher-politicians into adopting a distasteful sounding "anti" position, MAGA does the same thing. The term implies anyone negative to the term or the concepts it actually embodies, is anti greatness, when all along when America was greater than now or ever not great is not even attempted to be defined. It's just a nebulous mist of feeling, a rallying slogan with no substance.

We can't assume the Elites will triumph or fail since it appears we go through pendulous swing states. It can't last in either case. It is very much up in the air just how bad it will get before it swings back toward the Center. The bottom line is when things get so bad that "the villagers" take up torches and pitchforks, it's best if they/we know where The Monster lives, especially when "he: is behind walls in gated communities.

In my opinion, it has now become extremely important to see what is now taking place: "decidedly, outside" the "American™" sphere of influence.

Which "sphere of influence," if I may say, "is rapidly shrinking."

In the 1940's through the 1960's, the USA had four definite advantages:

1. It was (already) a self-sufficient industrial powerhouse, literally capable of producing everything that it needed, from "bauxite and iron ore that it mined."
2. Throughout all of WW2, none of that industry had ever come under attack.
3. "The US Dollar" was equivalent to "1/32 of an ounce of gold."
4. Post-war, it had an excellent marketing department.

But, eighty years is a very long period of time, which has now given plenty of very-stupid people plenty of time to do very-stupid things. Both with regard to its (very-proud utter divestment of ...) industry, and especially with regard to its currency.

Such that, today, "Make America(!) Great Again" is right now being vilified as nothing more than "an acronym on a red hat." Versus, "a rallying cry." Or, "a national security imperative." Or, "can't you see that we are drowning?" (Nope.)

No – right now, at least, there are loud-spoken people who tell you to see only: "MAGA™." It's just an acronym. An empty phrase and maybe an epithet. And to pay no attention to ".A.."

(Note: Whether 'you' choose to listen to them or not.)

But, "the times, they are a'changin." Because: "if you do not put '[your_country]' first™", nobody else on this planet ever will. (And, indeed, why should they?)

And so, the majority of the people on this planet are now beginning to do what every sensible human would do: "they are dealing you out of the game, that you have tried so very hard to rig." ("If the shoe were on the other foot ...")

The USA is just about to have to realize that: yes, "the other nations of the world" can actually force you(!) to change your position with relation to them. (Most humans learn this lesson by about age nine ...)

(But they don't actually give a damn about "your internal politics." They've seen [much ...] worse.)

It's interesting that you have that perception.

Speaking as someone who lives outside your borders, let me inform you that American influence on a global scale has never been bigger... Despite what your local media tells you.

My kids are mispronouncing words. By that, I mean that they're using American pronunciations for certain words. I find myself constantly correcting them.

Entire neighbourhoods in my city close their through-roads so that kids can go 'trick-or-treating' on Halloween... which is something that never happened when I was a kid. Halloween was something celebrated by fictitious families on TV sitcoms. It just wasn't part of life here. And over the last 3-4 years it suddenly is.

As for currency, which you mentioned, how is it that an Australian citizen transacting with a European company can be required to use USD? How does that even happen?