Thanks! I am getting tired of having this discussion over and over again. I once made the attempt to ask for packages not available via FTP and the guy came up with two office applications! There might be some more, but nevertheless I will continue calling the FTP version PRO. Calling the FTP version 'Personal' is much further away from reality!

EDIT: just found out, it was KimVette again. You are hard to convince! If the goal of your crusade is to get more people buying SUSE, you can count on my support. But I will not tell them that they get an incomplete Linux from FTP.

yup, most of the arguments are crap.
Everything can be selected/deselected during installation. That is the second GUI screen on the right. The same place where one can select partitioning options and whole lot more. Jesus...

It is not true as someone said that during install there are only two options: default selection or full install. It looks like simple installation process is beyond capacities of some of the users.

The idea behind 3GB DVD is simple: get basic installation first and if one is not happy, then install the rest later. How much redundand stuff should suse keep on ftp servers: all packages, plus all packages on DVD set for those who don't understand ftp installation plus all packages on CD for those who can't do ftp installation and don't have DVD burner?
Basically if one is not happy with software choice on DVD and want to get more or different apps during installation, then go for ftp. Of course reading some of the posts above I have serious doubts that some users can do it.

Not forgetting that when putting the whole commercial DVD onto the server they'd have to split it as the majority of users don't have dual-layer burning capability.

in all fairness to kimvette, however, saying that the suse pro eval has similarities to the previous personal versions isn't entirely without merit. the suse pro eval lacks many(most?) of the devel and server packages. so, while i disagree with his/her demeaning attitude toward others on this particular matter i can see why he/she insists that there are similarities. that's not justification to actually call it personal or say "it's the same thing" however because, even so, there are substantial differences.

anyway, i'm not hateful -- just don't see any reason to confuse people, 'specially newbs, by using inaccurate terms.

What is/was Suse Personal?

Suse Linux without commercial add-ons.

What is Suse Professional?

Suse Linux with some commercial add-ons plus installation support.

What is Suse Pro "eval?"

Suse Pro minus commercial add-ons, minus installation support, and is only available via download, attached CDs in magazine inserts, or if you happen to be a past Novell customer, sent to you in a mailer.

What is Suse Pro "Eval" really?

In essence, it is Suse Personal renamed, tied to Novell's FTP server, and is a brilliant marketing move to get more people to spring for Suse Linux Pro so they can avoid having to download all the packages from Novell's FTP server (even when you get the DVD in a magazine or mailer, if you want development tools, you're still tied to their FTP server). It's branded as an "evaluation" to make you feel guilty if you don't buy it.

I'm not evangelizing Suse, I'm just telling it like it is. They haven't really discontinued Personal, they basically renamed it and tied it to their FTP server to "encourage" you to buy Pro.

knetnight, to claim that Suse doesn't offer any form of Linux other than Suse Pro is simply wrong, because at that point you are playing semantics. We can agree that they killed off the Suse Personal brand name, however, since they still offer what they did in the past, just in a manner designed to inconvenience users in such a way that they will be more likely to spring for Pro, or more likely: simply switch to another distribution, such as Mandrake.

You can continue your little vendetta if you like, but folks who live here in reality can see the end result.

no vendetta kim, just a desire for accuracy. i wouldn't have cared if you didn't make personal attacks on others who actually hold the correct position.

this is not "the" difference. suse personal also included virtually no development tools or server packages.
as above, this is not "the" difference.

sounds like "SUSE Professional Eval" is exactly what it should be called since that's the product it's intended to prompt you to get.

i'm playing semantics??? as i said and others have pointed out, there are substantial real differences between the pro eval and suse personal.
e.g. 64-bit version, some devel and server packages, comes with many more "general" packages than were available on personal.
to say that suse pro eval is "the same thing, just renamed" as personal however is flatly erroneous because even the eval version is much more complete than personal ever thought about being.

the differences are more substantial than that.

as i said in the previous post, i acknowledge that you're correct in pointing out that there are some similarities to the pro eval and previous personal editions. i just don't see why, in the face of overwhelming evidence, you continue to blast me and others when we correctly say "there is no such thing as suse 9.2 personal". because, whether you like it or not, it's the simple truth -- it's novell's product so if they call it pro eval then that's what it is. if they choose to call it personal in the future then fine, that's what i'll call it too. i'm not asking you to say that suse pro eval isn't similar to personal, just to stop attacking people when they say the right thing. and, as you are someone who is quite active in the forums around here and provide answers to many people, to stop adding to the confusion by simply calling it what it is. it's a simple matter of being accurate, i'd think that you would appreciate that.

Isn't it clearer to users who are looking for the 9.2 version of Personal to point them at the equivalent new name of the product, rather than to claim that it doesn't exist?

Such marketing is common; akin to a supermarket bumping up the price of catsup sixty cents for three weeks, then bringing it down by fourty cents and claiming it's a "new lower price" -- or the cannery which sells the can of peas giving the can a new label, and then claiming it's "new and improved"

It's all marketing and in each result the reality of the above example is:

1. A planned price increase results in slick marketing WHILE maintaining a higher price

2. While legally adhering to advertising regulations, the cannery (be it Green Giant, Three Diamonds/Mitsubishi Foods, or whatever) is selling the exact same thing as a "new" product, maybe renaming "baby peas" to "small peas" claming the old one is discontinued (it's not, it's just renamed or labeled "new" because advertising regulations allow them to do so). It doesn't mean they're not actually selling baby peas any more, they simply renamed the darn thing to "small peas" and for folks who know the product line to not point consumers at the newly-named same product is more of a disservice than to flame someone who is pointing out the fact that someone is directing people to the still-available-under-a-new-label product.

HTH!

isn't it clearer yet, and more accurate, to say "there is no such thing but, here, this is similar?"

but the ftp edition of suse pro is NOT the exact same thing so your analogy fails.
1) it's been gratuitously demonstrated that it's not the exact same product.
2) i didn't say you shouldn't point it out as the closest thing to personal that's now available because i'd agree with that. that doesn't change the fact that "personal" no longer actually exists. opinion, yours or mine, is completely irrelevant.

Well I have installed all devel tools I needed during SuSE installation. All are free tools, after restart first thing I did was to get my own kernel, plus other stuff that is not available in rpm form.

1. Please list devel tools that are unavailable during ftp installation.
2. Please list all commercial apps that are not available. Probably you will find few packages which nobody is using anyway.
3. Please list all server tools that are not available during ftp installation


Please provide web page address stating that ftp version is of 9.2 is equivalent to Personal

I don't have that list handy. Sorry. I can name some of the desktops apps but I've already done that.

I already posted how they are equivalent. Novell does not state this because they changed the marketing tactic to get more people to spring for Pro. They don't call it personal, they call it an evaluation, but there IS NO TIME LIMIT on it, it is FREELY DOWNLOADABLE to install and run (even Novell is CRYSTAL-CLEAR about this), and it's nothing more than simply renaming the distribution version and changing the distribution method. The funny thing is: you have bought into the marketing move hook, line, and sinker.

God, you people are dense.

and we've posted how they're different but you refuse to acknowledge it and instead drone on and on with the same tired and erroneous chant.
good grief, you're like a poorly aimed shotgun -- we aren't discussing whether or not it should be called "evaluation", we're discussing whether or not it should be called "pro".
yeah, sure, ignore all those differences we've pointed out. kim, you've totally lost your credibility in regard to this issue. i don't know what your trip is but you clearly can't/won't acknowledge the simple and obvious truth.
see, there ya go, a baseless personal attack. please address the actual issues instead of insulting us as if it's a meaningful response.

This discussion has grow far over my head. Sorry, but I did not read every response carefully, but I have the impression that kimvette and the rest of us are talking about something different:

What can we get from SUSE:

#1 the boxed 9.2 Pro version from your local book/software shop
it contains 5 CD's and one or two(?) double-layer DVD. On this DVD, the maximum of software is available. This includes all devel packages, sources and the 64bit version. The 5 CD's do not contain everything, the list of missing packages is available here: http://www.novell.com/products/linux...ff_cd_dvd.html
#2 the FTP-DVD ISO download from ftp.suse.com and mirrors
This one single layer DVD, also called EVAL version, contains SUSE 9.2 in the 32 and 64 bit version with a limited software selection. A list of missing packages as compared to the boxed DVD set is not available, but the number of packages is high (double-layer <-> single layer). This version may be called 'PERSONAL'
#3 the FTP installation of SUSE 9.2, directly from the server
And this is now the point I am always refering to as 'PRO'. I am aware that some commercial packages are missing. KimVette has named two office applications. But, and this is important, all devel packages and sources and the 64bit version are fully available. There is nothing missing!

My point, that has been criticised by KimVette repeatedly and caused my response from above, is that I claim that you can obtain a 'Pro' version by updating you FTP-DVD installation (#2) through sources from the FTP installation (#3). I am aware of the little uncorrectness concerning the commercial packages, but I can live with that.

Since I think that my point is usually ignored (because you always discuss the difference between #1 and #2), I print it fat as a take-home message and my personal endpoint in this discussion:

FTP-DVD-ISO ~ EVAL/PERSONAL
FTP installation ~ PRO

the ftp dvd iso of suse 9.2 is eval/pro, not suse 9.2 eval/personal. it's fair to point people to it and say that it's "kind of like" personal but it's not personal. you can also criticize novell for releasing multiple editions of pro and being confusing -- but that doesn't change the fact that it's still not personal, nor is it even just the same thing renamed.

it's completely out of line for kim or anyone else to criticize people for saying, correctly, that there is in fact NO personal version of suse 9.2. you can say it's close, but it is not personal. the facts to support that are plentiful and indisputable. there's no basis whatsoever for kim's position on this.

I listened to all the above comments, and just have a couple of things to say.

1. The download version does not come with everything for development, however, you can download, (so far to my knowledge) any package you like.

2. Suse does compile packages from scratch, but it doesn't seem to install gcc and all the required libraries by default. Once again, just install them using Yast. I very simply installed real player, and several other apps after the initial installation.

3. The documentation on SuSe has to be the best written stuff I have ever seen. All 700+ pages of it. What a way to learn how to use Linux. Go to www.suse.com, support, documentation and download the PDF's. I printed the whole thing out.

4. The remote management, Samba apps, and management in Yast all make it one of the easiest distributions that I have found. If you want to get your hands dirty and edit files like /etc/smb.conf, you can surely do this. Nothing appears to be locked out.

5. If you really want a distribution that has all the bells and whistles, but assumes a level of 'techy' knowledge to use it, then Slackware is the way to go. Movies play, and for the most part everything works, after you go through a fair amount of pain, more then SuSe.

6. Look at the sticky up front in the forum for download servers. If you need more specific help, post it here and we can walk you through some steps.

Regards,

Randy.

Hey guys...J.W. asked a good question. Why? Well, the base system did not satisfy my specific requirements. Simple. And it's very easy to get the "base package" working.

This was a long time ago. And is an example of being on the "bleeding edge" of software (for my specific requirements).

Now that it's been a long time, and SuSE 10.2 is in use in production throughout workstations and servers in our office...and the "devel" packages now come with the distribution's DVD (I don't have to figure out how to find them or download them..even though I know now) building or rebuilding packages is quite easy. SuSE 9.2 was just "not quite there" but was a great package in its time.

Thanks again for listening to me. Sorry for yelling!!!

openSUSE 10.2 is a fantastic distribution.

I continue to hope that Novell treats Linux with respect, honesty, and openness. But..that's a different topic.....