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Old 06-28-2009, 08:10 AM   #676
onebuck
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Hi,
Quote:
Originally Posted by harishankar View Post
Forget everything else.

I wish the Slackware team would add native UTF 8 and i18n support out of the box like most modern distributions. This is a great must-have for people who often use multiple languages on their desktop and at least need support for one more language.

If Slackware had out-of-the-box i18n support, I would give it another go! Having to configure almost everything from scratch gets old really fast...
Why forget everything else?

It's not as difficult as you say to setup fonts for a user or system. Slackware is not a hold your hand distribution and hopefully never will be.

'Beautiful Fonts in 12.1' is a great thread to aid you in understanding how 'Daedra' has done this. Do a search here and you will find more examples. You should be able to setup 12.2 using Daedra's example.

This link and others are available from 'Slackware-Links'. More than just SlackwareŽ links!
 
Old 06-28-2009, 08:51 AM   #677
vharishankar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onebuck View Post
Hi,


Why forget everything else?

It's not as difficult as you say to setup fonts for a user or system. Slackware is not a hold your hand distribution and hopefully never will be.

'Beautiful Fonts in 12.1' is a great thread to aid you in understanding how 'Daedra' has done this. Do a search here and you will find more examples. You should be able to setup 12.2 using Daedra's example.

This link and others are available from 'Slackware-Links'. More than just SlackwareŽ links!
I know, but that's not the point.

The point of this thread is asking for a wish-list or feature list.

And I asked for "pretty font" support out of the box. I know Slackware is not a hand-holding distribution, but it doesn't ask you to compile the entire system from ground-up does it?

Most of what Slackware asks the user to do is dirty, repetitive configuration tasks that a bot can do better and in faster time. I see no reason why some things shouldn't be pre-configured. I've done a lot of "manual configuration" in my time and I am not averse to it if it will achieve anything. But I don't get a sense of pleasure or achievement having to do ALL the necessary work for a decent desktop.

But I think some Slackware fans take it too far and want ONLY features that they personally like and use. From my own experience, Slackware still gives you a lot of tools and configuration by default and it's not an entirely 'do-it-yourself' distribution like LFS, so what's wrong in asking for basic UTF-8 fonts and internationalization support?

Last edited by vharishankar; 06-28-2009 at 08:57 AM.
 
Old 06-28-2009, 09:15 AM   #678
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harishankar View Post

Most of what Slackware asks the user to do is dirty, repetitive configuration tasks that a bot can do better and in faster time. I see no reason why some things shouldn't be pre-configured. I've done a lot of "manual configuration" in my time and I am not averse to it if it will achieve anything. But I don't get a sense of pleasure or achievement having to do ALL the necessary work for a decent desktop.
I see you're a Debian testing user. Debian is a good distro, but, the software selection offered in the stable branch of the distro is ancient.

You are exaggerating somewhat here, methinks. There are a few command-line text-based things you need to do to get a working desktop.

Slackware is not pre-configured because Mr. Volkerding does not assume that you want to use his distro for one specific task. I enjoy the fact that I can set-up Slackware according to my needs and wants.
 
Old 06-28-2009, 10:57 AM   #679
onebuck
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Hi,
Quote:
Originally Posted by harishankar View Post
I know, but that's not the point.

The point of this thread is asking for a wish-list or feature list.
Not when you place exemption points to weight yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by harishankar View Post
And I asked for "pretty font" support out of the box. I know Slackware is not a hand-holding distribution, but it doesn't ask you to compile the entire system from ground-up does it?
For my use the font support is adequate. But others like to have a pretty desktop. That's why I pointed you to Daedra's thread. What do you think about the way the desktop is setup within this thread?

Quote:
Originally Posted by harishankar View Post
Most of what Slackware asks the user to do is dirty, repetitive configuration tasks that a bot can do better and in faster time. I see no reason why some things shouldn't be pre-configured. I've done a lot of "manual configuration" in my time and I am not averse to it if it will achieve anything. But I don't get a sense of pleasure or achievement having to do ALL the necessary work for a decent desktop.
Then you really don't get the Slackware way do you? Bots will never take hold of Slackware as longs as PV is managing.

I see no problems with the current desktop environments available to the Slackware user. That's the nice thing about something that you can configure the way you desire. You can polish all you want or just wax once in a while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by harishankar View Post
But I think some Slackware fans take it too far and want ONLY features that they personally like and use. From my own experience, Slackware still gives you a lot of tools and configuration by default and it's not an entirely 'do-it-yourself' distribution like LFS, so what's wrong in asking for basic UTF-8 fonts and internationalization support?
I think your painting with to broad a brush. As stated you can customize to suit your needs. If you are using Slackware 12.2 then of course you could look at;
Code:
Kernel command line: BOOT_IMAGE=Linux ro root=805 vt.default_utf8=0
If you need international support then of course use the KDEi for your install.
 
Old 06-28-2009, 12:28 PM   #680
vharishankar
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Ah, well, I fixed my kernel problem in Debian by custom compiling a version < 2.6.26, so looks like I'm not worried now about Slackware.

But as you can see, I'm not averse to fixing any problems by digging deep, but sometimes I feel that I don't want to start all the way from scratch to get a decent desktop because I do a lot of work on my machine like:

1. Drawing and editing comics with my tablet pen (this needs a custom driver for wizardpen and scanner support).
2. Video editing and DVD creating which I do regularly (I need 64-bit support or encoding will be sub-optimal)
3. Coding and maintaining my Python and PHP scripts (I can install Apache/PHP/MySQL/SQLite and other extensions in a jiffy in Debian)
4. Taking care of my website and updating it (I can get editors like Bluefish without having to compile it)
5. For leisure play fun games like wormux and lbreakout.
6. Occasionally need to use a SIP soft phone to talk to my brother who's halfway across the globe.

etc. etc. No doubt I can do all this in Slackware, but most of my required apps are not in Slackware's official repository it will take time and manual configuration. I am not a typical desktop user and I'm quite greedy about installing and trying out new apps.

Good thing I didn't have to reinstall. It would take me days to get it to where I want to and also I cannot waste time because I have to read for my exams

However, I do like the fact that Slackware has *finally* embraced 64-bit.

Last edited by vharishankar; 06-28-2009 at 12:34 PM.
 
Old 06-28-2009, 01:12 PM   #681
brianL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harishankar View Post
Ah, well, I fixed my kernel problem in Debian by custom compiling a version < 2.6.26, so looks like I'm not worried now about Slackware.
I'm sure that's a relief to all of us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by harishankar View Post
(I can install Apache/PHP/MySQL/SQLite and other extensions in a jiffy in Debian)
Well, if you do a full install of Slackware (1 DVD or 3 CDs), those things are included. So you can have them in half a jiffy.
 
Old 06-28-2009, 01:31 PM   #682
vharishankar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianL View Post
I'm sure that's a relief to all of us.


Well, if you do a full install of Slackware (1 DVD or 3 CDs), those things are included. So you can have them in half a jiffy.
Ah yes, I won't be trolling around here so much eh?

I agree with you. Most of my complaints are based on the fact that I'm used to one method of doing things and I don't want to start from the beginning. Also I keep getting attracted to the solid stability and lightness of Slackware, but there are also things that keep me from using it as a regular OS. I was using it a few years back on my desktop, but since I switched almost entirely to the laptop, I've not really tried anything other than Debian on it.

However, as I mentioned before, I will always have wish-lists for Linux distributions. And I will, whenever I get a chance, push forward those views.

Last edited by vharishankar; 06-28-2009 at 01:32 PM.
 
Old 06-29-2009, 01:58 PM   #683
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This thread is interesting and fun to read. I posted some ideas some time ago. Recent events provided me some new thoughts with respect to this thread. Some things I'd like to see:

1. A Live CD/USB with a desktop option to install to a hard drive. No, not Slax, a true Live CD. I've seen some tools to help create installable Live CDs, but not a lot of information. Actually, the whole Live CD field is over my head and I'm awed at what people are doing in this area. Some of the Live CDs are just downright nice, such as sidux, PCLinuxOS, and Mepis. A Live CD is a wonderful promotional tool that I wish Slackware had. I wish some of these tools were available for Slackware so people could create their own Live CDs/USBs.

2. A graphical boot menu using gfxboot. The boot menus with sidux, PCLinuxOS, and Mepis are beautiful. Just beautiful. And flexible. I would love to see a gfxboot package in extra or at slackbuilds.org or slacky.eu. To my understanding, gfxboot works with both Lilo and GRUB.

3. Auto-recognition and auto-configuration tools. Part of the beauty of Slackware is the way in which the system is not designed to presume how an end-user wants the system designed. Yet auto-hardware configuration does not evade or defeat that philosophy. I'm impressed with how the Live CDs auto-detect and configure. Very nice. I also recently watched how the Debian installer auto-configures all the hardware. If a DHCP server is unavailable then the user is asked for a static address, but that is about all. Again, very nice. I think 13.0 is going to provide more auto-detection. . . .

Well, this thread is a wish list. All of this is beyond my skills and knowledge but I'm available for testing and helping with documentation.

Last edited by Woodsman; 06-29-2009 at 07:51 PM.
 
Old 06-29-2009, 05:55 PM   #684
BrZ
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...blacklist mono =]
 
Old 06-29-2009, 10:51 PM   #685
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Wolvix is a very good live slackware CD distro, that does not stray too much from the original. I used it for some 6 months as my main hdd system. I then decided I was ready for true slackware and to learn how to manage my system directly. I also tried zenwalk and vector. Each is excellent and far easier to install, however I now understand why they say "if you want to learn linux- use slackware". Once you make the commitment and have the time and determination to search for answers- it is all out there. In the very well written Slackware book, or on the web forums. Please do not alter the ncurser install system. Slackware really does give you total control-no fluffy gui's please.
 
Old 06-30-2009, 02:30 AM   #686
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Some care needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsman View Post
I also recently watched how the Debian installer auto-configures all the hardware. If a DHCP server is unavailable then the user is asked for a static address, but that is about all.
This is exactly the kind of things I do not want in Slackware. Availability of DHCP is completely unrelated to my desire to use it. More so, lack of DHCP at installation time is also unrelated to my desire to use it.

Provided there are no mistakes like the above, I agree auto configuration tools, when not run without asking, are more than welcome.
 
Old 06-30-2009, 01:18 PM   #687
Woodsman
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Quote:
Wolvix is a very good live slackware CD distro, that does not stray too much from the original.
Yes, I had forgotten about Wolvix. I have been waiting for the newer 2.0 version to appear officially. However, Wolvix is an Xfce system and I prefer KDE. Still, Wolvix is an option to possibly learn more about creating a Live CD.

Quote:
This is exactly the kind of things I do not want in Slackware. Availability of DHCP is completely unrelated to my desire to use it. More so, lack of DHCP at installation time is also unrelated to my desire to use it.
I did not express myself well.

The Debian installation automatically tried to configure a network connection and presumed DHCP. A reasonable programmatic presumption. When no DHCP server responded, the installation tool opened a dialog box asking for a static address but also provided the option to delay network configuration until later. To non-technical users, which exludes many Slackware users, this kind of installation is the correct approach.

Second, the Debian installer automatically updates to the latest patches. Therefore a network connection is desirable. A more experienced user might prefer updating manually, but non-technical users prefer this kind of automation. The Debian installer did provide the option to delay this automation.

Which raises another potential wish list item. Many Slackers prefer only to be notified when patches arre available and then manually control any updates. Non-technical users likely appreciate notices, but would prefer that patch updates be automated. Some people might argue that if people want that kind of automation to use a different distro. I prefer both options: provide a method to enable automated updates but allow others to perform the task manually.

I never have liked the either-or approach toward software. I believe developers should provide options and let end-users decide. Slackware is designed mostly to allow end-users decide but seldom provides tools to enable automation.

For the record, Slackware is my primary operating system. Yet I work and deal with many people who are not technical users or computer savvy. I have a lot of empathy for them with respect to using computers. Hence, my ideas and wish lists often are focused toward such people rather than myself or core Slackware users.

Last edited by Woodsman; 06-30-2009 at 01:20 PM.
 
Old 06-30-2009, 02:31 PM   #688
Alien Bob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsman View Post
The Debian installation automatically tried to configure a network connection and presumed DHCP. A reasonable programmatic presumption. When no DHCP server responded, the installation tool opened a dialog box asking for a static address but also provided the option to delay network configuration until later. To non-technical users, which exludes many Slackware users, this kind of installation is the correct approach.
You apparently have never performed a networked Slackware installation in the past year?
If the Slackware installer detects the presence of a DHCP server during installation, it will ask you if you want to use DHCP for automatic network configuration instead of requiring you enter an IP address, netmask and the like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsman View Post
For the record, Slackware is my primary operating system. Yet I work and deal with many people who are not technical users or computer savvy. I have a lot of empathy for them with respect to using computers. Hence, my ideas and wish lists often are focused toward such people rather than myself or core Slackware users.
Do these other people use Slackware primarily?

Eric
 
Old 06-30-2009, 04:09 PM   #689
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Quote:
You apparently have never performed a networked Slackware installation in the past year?
There is no need to use adverbs or rhetorical questioning, Eric.

No I have not. My point was not that a user is provided either choice but that the process is automated. The last time I tested a fresh installation of Slackware I was asked how I wanted to configure my network connection. Yes, like the network installation, I had a choice about DHCP or static. Yet the process was not automated. My point was only that the Debian installer (and other installers I have tested), automatically configure the DHCP client if a DHCP server is found. In these tests the user is asked what to do only when no DHCP server responds.

Quote:
Do these other people use Slackware primarily?
I'm don't know what you want to know by that question, but no, most of them use Windows. When I evaluate how I might persuade a Windows user to test/migrate out of that environment, I consider that most of these people are non-technical. These are point-and-click people. Nothing wrong with that --- that is their nature.

The Debian installer is graphical and automates much of the installation process. There also is a non-graphical installer option available. I'm not arguing which is "right" or "wrong" although I think both options should be available. I'm only noticing that such an installation is geared toward the kind of people I work with. All of the people I work with often come to me to ask for computer help before they call the IT help desk folks. These people are office workers, not IT people. I no longer care for Windows and often lament helping people within that environment. Yet I help because that is my nature and these people are non-technical people who seek help. I don't pretend to be a guru, and my Windows skills are getting rusty, but I have been around computers long enough that usually I can work my way to a solution. I know that most of these people haven't any idea how to configure a network card. Automating the process makes sense for most people.

Similarly, for such people, automating the downloading of the latest patches makes sense too. I think that automating such tasks is helpful. For example, not once in these recent tests was I asked to configure X or my sound card. All of that was automated. I did note in a previous post in this thread that I thought 13.0 was going to provide more auto-configuration. I haven't had time to test Current so I don't know for sure.

With that all said, let me add that I realize most of these non-technical users never would attempt to install an operating system. They would expect everything pre-installed. Yet, they would expect auto-configuration if they replaced a video card. They would expect automatic security patches.

Some people might argue that automation is not the "Slackware way." I'm not so sure. In hindsight Pat has included a lot of things that at one time many Slackers would never think would become part of Slackware. So requesting various features can only help continue improving Slackware. That is one reason why I wished for an installable Live CD. The Live CD is a wonderful way to sample a distro. The Live CD can be a significant marketing and promotional tool. An installable Live CD is just downright genius.
 
Old 06-30-2009, 04:19 PM   #690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsman
The Debian installation automatically tried to configure a network connection and presumed DHCP. A reasonable programmatic presumption. When no DHCP server responded, the installation tool opened a dialog box asking for a static address but also provided the option to delay network configuration until later. To non-technical users, which exludes many Slackware users, this kind of installation is the correct approach.
If I ever install a server on my network, I will want to use a static IP, even though a DHCP server is present.
IMO, the slackware way is right way. After installation, during the configuration, I'm asked if I want to set up a network connection. The dialog even mentions that DHCP is what most home networking devices use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsman
Which raises another potential wish list item. Many Slackers prefer only to be notified when patches arre available and then manually control any updates. Non-technical users likely appreciate notices, but would prefer that patch updates be automated. Some people might argue that if people want that kind of automation to use a different distro. I prefer both options: provide a method to enable automated updates but allow others to perform the task manually.
slackpkg is in the "ap" series nowadays, so it should be installed at configuration time. All that would be needed is a configuration dialog so you can configure the mirror sites for slackpkg, and the script that calls slackpkg update and slackpkg upgrade-all.

There is only one objection I can think of: slackware has no control over the mirrors, so a faulty mirror could ruin the slackware-experience, and nobody could do anything about it. ftp.slackware.com cannot handle the traffic, so that's not an option either.

I quite like the idea of an update-on-install option for slackware, and it isn't hard to code into the installer (cfr. KISS), but possibly the mirror system for slackware isn't ready for it. I'm sure others will add their concerns
 
  


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