k so
versatile and robust init system ?
depends on your view; i would say it is less flexible then slackwares BSD stile sysvinit
robust is also discussable since it's devs don't even care about debugging
also almost all, if not all, of that "revolutionary advanced" "init" stuff is done by other programs or the kernel
he didn't make shit (afaik not even console-kit, that is also a dubious thing)

who didn't explain shit on he's 0pointer blog ?
i didn't get wtf he meant with socket activation till i read a couple ppl discussing it here (it's useless bdw)

who devotes time to delete posts he doesn't like ?

pulseaudio is pure crap
it uses "secret rabbit code" sample rate library (libsamplerate) that uses floating point for no real benefit and is thus slow
(funny that it is based on a much faster "resample" library from stanford)
it also adds more latency that makes no f..ing sense... my guess it is he's "very complicated" latency-timing mechanism (can't remember what he called it; from what i understand it's something about as complex as a simple game engine loop)
edit: just to add; only assembly optimizations i found was for converting int to float, and that was not written by him nor is it in any way complicated
and real time DSP needs assembly optimizations, it is one of those things that benefit a lot from it

also, a sound server can "tune" itself at run time
and yet he blames distros and users for bad default configuration, like "PA is the best, it's your fault it's not working great"


avahi... i don't use it
this one actually sounds useful to a normal linux user surrounded by mac's and windows (and is, like many things he made, a straight up clone from osx)


so ye, if you really "need" socket activation then go ahead
id like to hear some sane reasoning on it, but that has not happened so far

I've seen threads spiral out of control in the past but this is just plain impressive.

5 members found this post helpful.

I'll take both the praise and the criticism. But please, if making s6 work was hellfire and brimstone for you, write to me and explain exactly what you found difficult and why; what could be made easier or better. I'm absolutely willing to make s6 easier to use, but I need the feedback. I see people trying to use or package s6 and complaining on forums (not only this one), and not even asking me for help, or subscribing to the mailing-list. Upstream is reachable. Talk to me.

People haven't heard of s6 for the simple reason that I'm a busy man and my free time is better spent designing and coding software than advertising it. Time spent bullying distributions into adopting a piece of software is time not spent making said software better. But I'm realizing more and more that distributions are obviously more sensitive to public relations than to technical merit, so I'll definitely do some more PR in the future.

5 members found this post helpful.

All systemd threads turn out this way but for some reason I feel the need to watch these slow motion train wrecks.

Just like pepsi/coke threads. People get real protective of their favorite/best opinions, especially in the face of change.

Thank you for and good luck with the future of the s6-suite. We may be looking to you fairly soon as a choice of init depending on how well Runit rolls off the line. Hell, we might even do it just to offer yet another choice, but that's best saved for another topic. Maybe "hellfire and brimstone" is just my best analogy of attempting what John F. Kennedy said in his infamous speech, "We do these things not because they are easy, but because they are hard." But trust me Skarnet, your work, even if by a small number, is being looked at heavily with promise and interest.

However, even seeing upstream jumping in to say "SOMETHING" actually speaks volumes that someone actually is listening and wants to help downstream. If more developers were like yourself, I doubt we'd have as many issues as we have. A hat tip to your efforts sir.

Runit will move faster to non-LFS when we get more scripts written to start and stop services as well as log them. Dare I say it, but until we get a full set of working scripts written it won't be moving as fast, but yes, Runit does work.

I may sometime soon, see if the Runit team is willing and able, to take a chance on Skarnet's s6-suite and see if we can't do an FHS stylized port of s6 to LFS and then see about branching it out.

And yes, the future does look promising as long as there's a willingness to make it promising.

And ssl779... this single quote of yours:

All credibility you had went out the window with that statement. And I would never want to be a hero. If I ever did anything a simple thank you and "If I ever meet you, I'll buy you a beer or a shot of Jack Daniels" is all I'd ever want from anyone. I'm no hero, neither is anyone here... and I'm fairly certain on an educated guess... nobody here wants to be a hero on any level. If that man is any resemblance of what a hero is to you... in the words of Obi-Wan Kenobi, "Then you are lost!"

2 members found this post helpful.

All of the systemd threads also tend to include people who can't resist posting that this is yet another systemd thread, etc...

Another one who refuses to stay the point and argue with a straw man.



Did you happen to actually look at any of those on that page?

Many of them are legacy and written by someone other than LP, and seeing all those sd*<crap> and systemd*<crap> just makes me cringe that anyone can think all of that is somehow good for a system. It's a nightmare gone wild for any sysadmin.

Never mind...that one flew past you too quickly.


So the many are wrong and the one (him) is right? Neat how you do that.


I don't believe you *couldn't* with alsa. For one with the resume you claim to have, you couldn't get alsa to work okay for you?


Ah, not on *your* PC's, but if anyone else uses that excuse it's pathetic, right? And all the problems pulseaudio brought to so many others...what did they do wrong?

Yet you need to try and flaunt it as something good for someone somewhere, just not *you*.


So he's lying about the work he's doing? Give me a break. That was lame of you and you know it.


C'mon. Show us, don't just say it. I can say I won two Pulitzer prizes but until I actually showed it I'm sure you and everyone else would be pretty skeptical.

The abundance of systemd threads simply shows that people are not unanimous, there are strong feelings on both sides, and that means there is a real issue, worthy of being discussed.

It is hard to not have strong feelings regarding systemd, one way or the other. I simply believe that pro-systemd people have strong positive feelings towards systemd because they see what it's doing right - as in better than sysvinit - and disregard what it's doing wrong because they don't know anything better.

Advertising a better alternative (hint hint: s6), making it well-known, and explaining where and how it is better, is the single most important thing anti-systemd people can do now. Opposition without a suitable contender is a waste of time; opposition with a suitable contender is progress.

3 members found this post helpful.

Heh heh...maybe one day when I get closer to figuring things like installing a new init system out, I'll start actually trying to do it. For now, I've got enough troubles just trying to learn to make my own bash scripts. But you *are* right about needing to hear from the people who try or do 'use' it. That *is* the only way you'll know what's happening with your stuff. When I get to where I'll start trying that kind of thing with my system, I'll be sure to let you know.

I too though would like to thank you for what you've done, as I do PV (and many others) when something happens or comes out or whatever that I like and I can use and am happy with.

You don't think something like this that can and is influencing linux as a whole is important enough for people to discuss why or why it shouldn't be implemented? That, to me, is like burying ones head in the sand and saying to yourself over and over 'Someone else will take care of the problem'.

The LFS-Runit team is already in discussion over implementing s6.

We should have an answer soon enough from all parties involved and if all are a go, then fun begins anew with s6.

I'm already in the process of building a brand new LFS base to work with s6.

Been using Windows 8.1 and no systemd here :P

Jokes apart, I do believe that if systemd gets even bigger (it is already a really big project) the non-systemd distros would most likely die out.

I doubt they'll die out. We always can go back to using the UNIX tools similar to BSD.

There's always a way.

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There is nothing actually being discussed the usual people are saying to the same things that have been said many times in many threads and many mailing lists. Nothing new is going on here that's why I called it a slow motion train wreck. Everyone has taken sides and now all that's happening is people are talking poorly aimed shots at one another.