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Old 03-12-2010, 05:11 AM   #16
Ivshti
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I'm very sorry, I don't want to offend you, but the suggestion is quite useless. There aren't a lot of 32 bit systems with RAM above 5-6 GB, and even if there are, it's insane.
There are a lot more old systems and enabling this option will hurt them a lot, since the HIGHMEM64 will make the RAM paging information bigger.
 
Old 03-12-2010, 05:26 AM   #17
syg00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
Ahh, it's always fun to read Linus T's opinions.
I just wish sometime he'd say what he really thinks rather than all this beating around the bush ...
 
Old 03-12-2010, 08:03 AM   #18
onebuck
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyCyborg View Post
... because most users have 4, 8 or 16 gigabytes memory, today.

It's embarrassing (and ridiculous) to recompile the kernel every time when you do upgrade, because it recognizes only 2GB of the 4GB that are on my system. ;-)

Thanks!

'Linus' stated it very clearly. Your either 'lazy', 'crazy' or as I feel selfish when you expect things of this sort to be done for you. When you clearly have the computing power to setup as your needs warrant. While others around the world can't nor may not have the means to change without major problems or effort. There are more 386 class machines than the newest multi-core system. Most people in the world don't have the means to upgrade monthly or even yearly so don't expect things to change to just suit your desires.

BTW, the date on the post has nothing to do with a valid point of view.

My

Quote:
Excerpt from 'Linus';

Date Thu, 15 Nov 2007 13:47:54 -0800 (PST)
From Linus Torvalds <>
Subject Re: mmap dirty limits on 32 bit kernels (Was: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs)

On Thu, 15 Nov 2007, Peter Zijlstra wrote:
>
> But this problem is already an issue, Anton recently had a case where a
> 12GB highmem box locked up due to NTFS running out of lowmem - or
> something like that.

Yeah. I always considered HIGHMEM to just be unusable. It's ok for
extending to 2-4GB (ie HIGHMEM4G, not 64G), and it's probably borderline
usable for 4-8G if you are careful.

But quite frankly, I refuse to even care about anything past that. If you
have 12G (or heaven forbid, even more) in your machine, and you can't be
bothered to just upgrade to a 64-bit CPU, then quite frankly, *I*
personally can't be bothered to care.

That's my personal opinion, and I realize that some of the commercial
vendors may care about their insane customers' satisfaction, but I'm
simply not interested in insane users. If they have that much RAM (and
bought it a few years ago when a 64-bit CPU wasn't an option), they can't
be poor.

So the _only_ explanation today for 12GB on a 32-bit machine is
(a) insanity
or
(b) being so lazy as to not bother to upgrade
and in either case, my personal reaction is "I'm *not* crazy, and yes, I'm
lazy too, and I can't give a rats *ss about those problems".

HIGHMEM was a mistake in the first place. It's one that we can live with,
but I refuse to support it more than it needs to be supported. And 12GB is
*way* past the end of what is worth supporting.

Linus
 
1 members found this post helpful.
Old 03-13-2010, 03:55 AM   #19
gargamel
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Now, as Linus says:

"It's ok for extending to 2-4GB (ie HIGHMEM4G, not 64G)"

Maybe, that would be a good compromise, then. Personally I don't care, actually, as my 32-bit systems have no more than 2 GB of RAM, while my bigger machines are all 64-bit.

But if I understand Linus correctly, he's referring to 32-bit CPUs, and not to 32-bit operating systems on 64-bit CPUs, which is, what many people have. Quite a few people run 32-bit Slackware on 64-bit hardware. Not sure, if HIGHMEM64G is a problem on these machines, too.

I had Slackware 12.2 on my most capable machine with 8 GB of RAM, before Slackware64 was available, myself. Although it was ok, I switched to Slackware64 as soon as it was there. But there are few applications that really run faster. Image processing for my photos, is one example. Many other things run with no noticeable performance difference.

So maybe, the problem isn't as big, if you look at it as an end-user, and as Linus says, you won't see it in user space.

What's my point, then? I think, it's ok both ways, and the decision should be based on user base. How many users of 32-bit Slackware are there, and do they use it on 32 or 64-bit hardware?

EDIT: And I am pretty sure, that it is either actually already based on this and technical reasons, or that that the defaults are just what the vanilla kernel comes with. Which, in turn, is usually made with the above considerations in mind.
And while Linus doesn't care about 'insane' users, he, and also Pat and 'the crew' listen to their 'sane' users. This is, at least, my personal experience.

Evidence: Slackware is the best platform on Earth for Java development. There's no other distro that makes it less complicated to install and use the latest Java SDK. This is, because users wanted to have Java included with Slackware, although Pat was thinking about dropping it in order to save space on the DVD.

So I'm sure, he's reading this thread and draw the right conclusions, as always.

gargamel

Last edited by gargamel; 03-13-2010 at 04:11 AM.
 
Old 03-13-2010, 04:50 AM   #20
whizje
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If you care about performance and kernel size you should always compile your own kernel, imho.
 
Old 03-13-2010, 09:36 AM   #21
damgar
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Why is it embarassing to recompile a kernel? I could almost, kinda understand ridiculous, but I don't follow embarassing at all.

Also, I have a new found respect for Linus. I rather enjoyed:
Quote:
So the _only_ explanation today for 12GB on a 32-bit machine is
(a) insanity
or
(b) being so lazy as to not bother to upgrade
and in either case, my personal reaction is "I'm *not* crazy, and yes, I'm
lazy too, and I can't give a rats *ss about those problems".
HA!
 
Old 03-13-2010, 12:44 PM   #22
lumak
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wow, seeing that is enough to convince me to not use the high mem features on my 32bit server with 6gigs of ram.... I bought it used for cheap. As an after thought, a new bargain 64bit machine for the same price would probably out perform this machine even though it is a dual dual-core xeon machine with 6 gigs. Additionally, I think there is some weird bios feature to make the OS use half the ram and do some kind of redundancy thing in the bios.
 
Old 03-13-2010, 02:47 PM   #23
damgar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lumak View Post
wow, seeing that is enough to convince me to not use the high mem features on my 32bit server with 6gigs of ram.... I bought it used for cheap. As an after thought, a new bargain 64bit machine for the same price would probably out perform this machine even though it is a dual dual-core xeon machine with 6 gigs. Additionally, I think there is some weird bios feature to make the OS use half the ram and do some kind of redundancy thing in the bios.
I still use PAE 64 for my lfs system that I'm working on and the slack13 32bit that I used as a host system for the LFSbuild. I've suffered no ill effects to date. Of course neither of those have been used to do more than cp/mv/tar a bunch of files and build a bunch of packages. It has 6GB RAM.
 
Old 03-13-2010, 04:14 PM   #24
gargamel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lumak View Post
wow, seeing that is enough to convince me to not use the high mem features on my 32bit server with 6gigs of ram.... I bought it used for cheap. As an after thought, a new bargain 64bit machine for the same price would probably out perform this machine even though it is a dual dual-core xeon machine with 6 gigs. Additionally, I think there is some weird bios feature to make the OS use half the ram and do some kind of redundancy thing in the bios.
There may be a performance penalty, but it probably depends on your use cases, how big it is. If I was in your shoes I'd give HIGHMEM64G a try. If you have applications that benefit from the bigger RAM, that is. In case you are not satisfied, reverting back to the default would be simply a matter of re-installing the pre-compiled binary kernel that comes with Slackware, and run lilo.

gargamel
 
Old 03-13-2010, 07:36 PM   #25
lumak
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I always have at least 3 entries on my boot menu
Recompiled With my Options
Generic Slackware with initrd
and "Safe" with HUGE

I don't want to have to use a boot disk if I screw up a kernel change and it's always nice to have a boot option for the 'expected' stable slackware configuration. This is why people should use the 'tag' option in their kernel configuration. No Kludging of your system packages.

Anyway, my post was more of a comment on Linus' comments. The server is off most the time and more of a toy to serve a scsi dvd library robot. autofs+network shares+remote access if I get around to writing the scripts. However, considering in the long run it may end up doing transcoding or streaming a movie dvd through vlc, the memory will be heavily used at that point.

Last edited by lumak; 03-13-2010 at 07:38 PM.
 
Old 03-14-2010, 09:01 AM   #26
guanx
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Non-PAE kernels really have problem(s) besides the 4GB problem -- e.g.
Code:
Notice: NX (Execute Disable) protection cannot be enabled: non-PAE kernel!
Does any PAE-hater know why some people would run 32-bit systems on 64-bit bigmem machines? The reason is simple:
  1. It is not easy to buy old computers nowadays. If a computer dies, one is very likely to buy a 64-bit bigmem one for replacement.
  2. Althought the computer is changed, the maintainer still wishes to run his/her old production software collection. This is common sense for avoiding suddenly introducing many problems into a running system.
  3. Using multilib system introduces unnecessary complexity, which tends to introduce more bugs into a running system.

Of course these reasons are nonsense to a *pure* desktop newbie. But I wonder how many Slackware users use Slackware *only* for personal desktop computing.

For those who really need to run Slackware on Pentium and older systems, please recompile your SMP kernel with BIGMEM64G disabled.
I can be pretty sure that these are advanced users. They must have faster computers. They can save time by compiling non-PAE SMP kernels on a computer other than their pre-Pentium system.

Last edited by guanx; 03-14-2010 at 07:22 PM.
 
Old 03-14-2010, 11:01 AM   #27
forum1793
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Do you folks think Linus' comments indicate there is little reason to have more than 2gb ram or that HIGHMEM implementation in the kernel make it not worthwhile for a 32 bit processor?

I currently have no PCs with more than 2gb but was thinking the next system would have at least 4.
 
Old 03-14-2010, 12:36 PM   #28
onebuck
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by forum1793 View Post
Do you folks think Linus' comments indicate there is little reason to have more than 2gb ram or that HIGHMEM implementation in the kernel make it not worthwhile for a 32 bit processor?

I currently have no PCs with more than 2gb but was thinking the next system would have at least 4.
It really depends on your needs. If development then you may need more power thus a lot of processor load along with more memory.

If all you are doing is minor editing, browsing and such then your needs may not be that great.
 
  


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