Kali Linux sticky thread?

Originally Posted by ondoho please add a link to the sticky in question to post #1. thanks.

I think you mean post #1 of this thread, if so, I can't do that either. (I think because it was started too long ago - Jeremy would know)

@jeremy, a little help?

Regarding this recent example: https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...ux-4175619952/

Don't you think the overall delivery is just a tad too harsh? I'm not sure it would ever invite a positive response under any circumstances. Plus if the objective is to get the OP to actually click your link and read your article/blog, a post of that sort doesn't seem the best way to achieve that.

And despite that, you still have several arguably needless replies and only one ontopic reply recommending a partitioning tool.

I do agree with cynwulf about this. I do feel we should humbly suggest versus show exasperation. Each new user who asks a poor question about Kali is not at fault for the prior users who have also done so. Meanwhile some new users can possibly be encouraged to participate in LQ helpfully.

I added a followup post to the Kali sticky thread. The reason for this was that I saw two or three examples where people referred the sticky, sometimes did not really read all of what the OP had to say, and a result was the OP has read the sticky, or does, and comments that while it is somewhat informative, it doesn't help them because they really are using Kali and making a serious attempt at it. Therefore well thought out questions on their part may be more helpful.

The bottom line is that Kali is a real distribution with a real purpose. If someone is making a serious attempt to use it, their questions are not unfair or impolite and they should not be treated in that way. If we do not have an answer for their question, then we do not.

Well cynwulf,

I am actually a tad surprised you are concerned about weather the OP actually does visit the sticky or not. Given previously, you have said the sticky is not needed to being with. With all respect, care to clarify there?

But hey, as you noted in another thread (in this same forum), none of us are perfect, that also includes myself.

So I will admit that I probably could have been a little more tackful and I will admit that.

But I'd still say by the same token that in that particular case: given the sticky was at the very top of the Newbie forum, if the OP had bothered to read it and where not using Kali for it's intended purposes; the answer to their question would have been to wipe out Kali and do exactly as the sticky says. (in other words... do a backup of their personal data then, other than maybe SWAP wipe all partitions out)

While it's not always particularly easy to tell someone else technical knowledge from god only knows how far away, based on what the OP did say, it didn't sound to me from their very first post that they have;

a) any real understanding of what Kali is meant for.
b) much knowledge about Linux in general.

But all of that said, I do agree with what rtmistler is saying in post #63. As I've already said in this thread, the sticky should be as useful as it can be, as long as it doesn't defeat the point of having it there in the first place. And once again, where-ever possible it could also be helpful to people that ARE using Kali for it's intended purposes.

This once again makes it a more useful and helpful resource for everyone here to use. And adding links that are helpful to such people in the "More Resources" section of the sticky is a good chance at doing that, without changing/defeating the primary reasons behind having it there in the first place. I once again am more than happy for this to happen, as I think it should be as helpful and as useful as it can possibly be.

Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 I am actually a tad surprised you are concerned about weather the OP actually does visit the sticky or not. Given previously, you have said the sticky is not needed to being with. With all respect, care to clarify there?

Nothing I've said is at odds with what I've said previously.

If your goal is to get your sticky read - that's not the way to do it. you may as well forget your sticky and do what others have done in the past - and still do - and just post from a script with some pompous sounding advice to the effect that they've chosen the wrong Linux distro.

Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 So I will admit that I probably could have been a little more tackful and I will admit that.

Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 But I'd still say by the same token that in that particular case: given the sticky was at the very top of the Newbie forum, if the OP had bothered to read it and where not using Kali for it's intended purposes; the answer to their question would have been to wipe out Kali and do exactly as the sticky says. (in other words... do a backup of their personal data then, other than maybe SWAP wipe all partitions out)

Well... it's really their choice. You've also hit on - yet again - the age old problem of these new forum users committing the heinous crime of not reading the sticky threads.

Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 I think you mean post #1 of this thread, if so, I can't do that either. (I think because it was started too long ago - Jeremy would know) @jeremy, a little help?

yes, i meant post #1 of this thread.
it's a little confusing to discuss something that isn't linked in either the first or the last reply.

well i read it now, and would like to give some comment:

• make it clear that being based on debian means that it is NOT debian, and one should not bother to try debian forums either.
• add some history and how annoying the kali phenomenon is for virtually everybody who's already been using linux before.
• the quote "learn to walk before learning to run" is factually incorrect; small children indeed learn to run first, walking is harder. i'm sure we all understand how it's meant, but i couldn't resist adding that.

cynwulf,

While I have no intention of continuing with your argument that sticky's are a waste of time, just understand a couple of things - with all respect (and I do mean that);

* Not only do other members think the sticky is useful (and have used it themselves - rather than sat there and "and just post from a script with some pompous sounding advice to the effect that they've chosen the wrong Linux distro.")

* They have stated that in this very thread that you should have seen for yourself.

* Even if some don't read it in the first instance, as other members have once again already said (in this thread); "all the more reason to keep up the stickies and keep lecturing them." And more to the point, they can still be directed to the sticky if they have not read it beforehand. This once again re-enforces the message that (as others have also said) we are not just going to be a "human Google" for people that can't be bothered putting in the effort to help themselves and/or who are using Kali for the purposes it's not intended for.

* As I've already said in this thread before, by people coming here and getting help, as well as the fact that the whole aim of the site is to "help people help themselves", they are being "educated". Just because it's not in a classroom, it does not mean they are not learning anything - you goto a school/classroom to learn, don't you?

* The fact that you had'nt logged onto LQ in at least a little while and therefore don't reply to this thread to voice your aguement that it's just a waste of time to do the sticky, is not anyone else's fault, it's just bad luck. As FYI, I did not just decide one day to write a sticky that may or may not be useful to anyone, excuse me, cynwulf.

With all respect cynwulf, (and i DO mean that, once again);

It started with a post from me to one of sundialsvcs's "Kernel Panic" draft threads, suggesting that it might be worth looking at the idea for Kali Linux. An idea that would have remained just that if it where not for rtmistler sending me a PM asking me about weather I was serious about writing one or not. I even said to him a PM's between himself and myself (which RT can confirm himself) that I didn't really what to write one, unless it had the support from other members. And I would NOT of written it in the first place, full stop, if it where not for the support from other members, who unlike yourself happen to think that such a thing is "long-overdue" to use some of their words.

So once again cynwulf, because I do happen to agree a lot with you in other posts and DO have respect for you, it's out of that I have made my position clear and I believe you have as well, so there's zero point in continuing the argument. So if you want to disagree with it, that's fine, but don't expect me to agree with you on that one nor reply any further to this argument.

^ once again, you are telling people to stop arguing. what gives you such sense of entitlement (rhethorical question)?

Originally Posted by ondoho ^ once again, you are telling people to stop arguing. what gives you such sense of entitlement (rhethorical question)?

No I'm not ondoho, I think you have mis-read the meaning behind my post there. I thought I was pretty clear in said post, but clearly I was not clear enough.

Other than the other points I've already made concerning the sticky thread itself (and don't intend on re-making);

I was only intending to make the point that I'M not going to continue the argument. So if you wish to continue it, that's entirely up to your good-self. I meant what I said before... count me out of the argument, I'm sorry.

I was not intending to cause any offence to anyone for the record. I was only making my position clear and was genuinely un-clear when I queried cynwulf about his.

So with all respect "entitlement" has absolutely nothing to do with it. Also, it's not my sticky, it's LQ's and everyone else's too mate and was written FOR the benefit of members as well as LQ/mods, excuse me.

I'm sorry if it sounded like how you have taken it.

Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 * Not only do other members think the sticky is useful (and have used it themselves - rather than sat there and "and just post from a script with some pompous sounding advice to the effect that they've chosen the wrong Linux distro.") They have stated that in this very thread that you should have seen for yourself.

There are around 10(?) participants in this thread (what amounts to a tiny minority of the LQ membership participating). A few of those are moderators/admin. It had support of most of those replying, but it's not exactly 'the will' of the entire membership. I think it's fair to say that those supporting this (and posting) are likely to be those who get personally annoyed by the Kali threads/users and just can't bring themselves to ignore the threads/cut those users some slack.

Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 This once again re-enforces the message that (as others have also said) we are not just going to be a "human Google" for people that can't be bothered putting in the effort to help themselves and/or who are using Kali for the purposes it's not intended for.

You're dismissing a certain type of user for not "putting in the effort", yet at the same time expecting them to (put in the effort) read a sticky thread? In my book, you engage with people first, get them to listen to reasoned arguments, then they might read your sticky thread and actually take note.

Here you're repeatedly stating that you're not interested in what I have to say on this matter, yet you expect others - usually new members who may never post again - to read your post, follow your link and read a set of rules and guidelines advising them that they're using the wrong Linux distribution.

Originally Posted by cynwulf There are around 10(?) participants in this thread (what amounts to a tiny minority of the LQ membership participating). A few of those are moderators/admin. It had support of most of those replying, but it's not exactly 'the will' of the entire membership.

Firstly cynwulf,

Please don't put words into my mouth. It wasn't just members that have posted to this thread I was referring to in my post before. Every single member of this site (including mods/admin) has had equal opportunely to respond to this thread, which was started on 09-06-17, at 01:09 AM (according to my web browser and timezone), including yourself. As I said before, it's not anyone else's fault that you didn't login to LQ when this thread was originally posted.

Would also dare say that if most members felt that the sticky was a complete "waste of time", surly at least some more of them would have responded to this thread well before now to say that/and something very similar to what your saying. They haven't. (and still haven't) That would suggest at least one of two things:

1) Most members that regularly login to LQ don't have an issue with the sticky (regardless of weather or not they get "annoyed" with Kali posts)
2) At least some of them think it at least might be useful to some extent/support it.

...I think it's fair to say that those supporting this (and posting) are likely to be those who get personally annoyed by the Kali threads/users and just can't bring themselves to ignore the threads/cut those users some slack.

Oddly enough, I can at least agree on your first point there... yes, that's right, some of us would actually much prefer to help those that wish to help themselves and have enjoyed that with other members on at least a couple of occasions now too. I happen to also believe that; how can you be helping someone, if your setting them up to fail in the first place?? Answer: Your not helping them one little bit. Kali's own developers say it's not a system for the "newbie" OR "general purposes". So yes, I do believe informing the OP of that fact is doing right by them. Excuse me.

You're dismissing a certain type of user for not "putting in the effort", yet at the same time expecting them to (put in the effort) read a sticky thread? In my book, you engage with people first, get them to listen to reasoned arguments, then they might read your sticky thread and actually take note.

I'm not "dismissing" ANY type of user "for not "putting in the effort"", excuse me. I've even said both publicly and privately, if the sticky could also benefit those using Kali for it's intended purposes then, I'm all for it.

Yes, absolutely agree with your last point there, agree. That's basically what the sticky is there for to be read for. At least some have already taken note and god only knows how many we don't know about, that haven't asked a question about our good mate Kali.

Here you're repeatedly stating that you're not interested in what I have to say on this matter, yet you expect others - usually new members who may never post again - to read your post, follow your link and read a set of rules and guidelines advising them that they're using the wrong Linux distribution.

Once again, please stop putting words into my mouth. I never at ANY point said I was "not interested" in what you have say on this matter. You have made your points several times now, that doesn't add anything new to the discussion.

You like any other members of LQ have had ample time to make your views known, you have, I've made mine known...

We don't agree that in your view "sticky's are a waste of time", nothing is going to change that...

no-one is denying you your views on the matter... no-one has even tried stopping you from making your points. No-one is stopping anyone else from making their views on the matter clear for all of LQ to see and respond to.

If you want to continue the debate, nobody is stopping you or other members from discussing it. But I like you, also have a choice about weather or NOT I respond to any given question... I choose not to respond to that particular debate as I've already made my views known. And if others want to do the same... no-one is stopping them.

So if you want to continue to take every chance you can to make your views known, then that's up to yourself. I'm out of the debate mate, as it's just not worth the extra typing, I'm sorry cynwulf. It's not worth the hassle mate.

Given the number of Kali threads, it may make sense to: create a Kali forum, include an updated sticky there, and then ensure all related thread moving forward are posted or moved to that forum. That will allow those interested in discussing Kali to do so, but will also allow the forum to be hidden by those who don't want to see it. Thoughts?

--jeremy

Originally Posted by jeremy Given the number of Kali threads, it may make sense to: create a Kali forum, include an updated sticky there, and then ensure all related thread moving forward are posted or moved to that forum. That will allow those interested in discussing Kali to do so, but will also allow the forum to be hidden by those who don't want to see it. Thoughts? --jeremy

It's an interesting idea and I think at least some members would support it. Myself, if other members think it's worth-while to do it, I'm happy to give it a chance. (but can't speak for others tho)

The only issue is that a lot of Kali posts do get posted to the Newbies forum. (the reason I suggested originally that the sticky be placed there) So, would you keep a copy of the sticky there or create another that points to the Kali forum?

The question for me would be how many Kali threads have real questions where we can help, and also whether or not any Kali experts regularly would participate in that forum.

I've brought up NS2 for years and there's no interest in a forum. But, we have an NS2 regular expert in the forums.

Another case in point, we had a new thread just last night. Looked like a possible honest question. I replied for some follow-up and the OP created a dupe later. Maybe they don't understand email updates, or maybe they didn't hear what they wanted, so they did the dupe.

As far as a lot of posts being sent to Newbie, or other, this is no problem, we can move them.

My concern here is that anyone can really help these posters.

Originally Posted by rtmistler The question for me would be how many Kali threads have real questions where we can help, and also whether or not any Kali experts regularly would participate in that forum. I've brought up NS2 for years and there's no interest in a forum. But, we have an NS2 regular expert in the forums. Another case in point, we had a new thread just last night. Looked like a possible honest question. I replied for some follow-up and the OP created a dupe later. Maybe they don't understand email updates, or maybe they didn't hear what they wanted, so they did the dupe. As far as a lot of posts being sent to Newbie, or other, this is no problem, we can move them.

I have to agree with RT all the way here, and the Kali posters I think have just proved what is said above: https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...175620177-new/

In this particular case, the OP (who is using Kali) did not even understand a "Read only filesystem" error message. That's the sort of people using Kali? And what is the point? This is case and point of why I started this thread to ask if a sticky was needed/could be helpful. Well, let's look at this:

1) The thread title: "Bad"
2) The OP does not state anything about using Kali for it's intended purposes.
3) The OP does not (IMHO) seem to understand what Kali is meant/intended for.
4) I don't think the OP has even read Kali's own warning on their own website.
5) The OP does not even answer any questions asked by other members to get more info on their issue.

My concern here is that anyone can really help these posters.

Posters like the above: I don't think they can help themselves; how are we going to in that case??

I agree.