LinuxQuestions.org
Register a domain and help support LQ
Go Back   LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Linux Forums > Linux - Newbie
User Name
Password
Linux - Newbie This Linux forum is for members that are new to Linux.
Just starting out and have a question? If it is not in the man pages or the how-to's this is the place!

Notices


Reply
  Search this Thread
Old 06-28-2009, 08:21 AM   #16
jay73
LQ Guru
 
Registered: Nov 2006
Location: Belgium
Distribution: Ubuntu 11.04, Debian testing
Posts: 5,019

Rep: Reputation: 130Reputation: 130

VMS are interesting but I'm not sure they are ideal for playing games as they tend to have an awful impact on I/O. And I don't know whether virtualbox has support for directX - Vmware has but it's still experimental and may not include directX 10.
 
Old 06-28-2009, 08:23 AM   #17
mrrangerman
Member
 
Registered: Oct 2007
Location: MI
Distribution: Debian Slackware
Posts: 528

Rep: Reputation: 50
My first thought is to tell you not to install linux at all. If you have to be convinced I doubt you will take the time needed to learn. If you are willing to learn though.......

If you are going to have more than one pc, I would suggest building the newest and fastest for gaming running windows for the OS. Then take the other pc and install linux for learning.

Words of advice, try to remember when you are working with linux you will be starting from the beginning. Take the time to learn it and remember you didn't know anything about windows when you first started using it.(You had to learn it)
 
Old 06-28-2009, 08:30 AM   #18
jay73
LQ Guru
 
Registered: Nov 2006
Location: Belgium
Distribution: Ubuntu 11.04, Debian testing
Posts: 5,019

Rep: Reputation: 130Reputation: 130
Well, yes, but if you can spare the money, you might get two hard drives. A small drive will do and shouldn't be too expensive. Keeping each system on a drive of its own it still the best way of avoiding trouble. When I still had windows, I would unplug all drives except one, install windows, then unplug the windows drive and connect the other one(s) and install linux, plug in all the drives and then go into BIOS and make the linux drive the boot drive. This way, your linux bootloader does not overwrite the windows boot loader so you have a completely unaffected windows drive.
I think an extra drive isn't a waste anyway as making back-ups on the same drive as the original data is a bit pointless. If the drive dies, you lose the back-up, too.

Last edited by jay73; 06-28-2009 at 08:31 AM.
 
Old 06-28-2009, 10:39 AM   #19
onebuck
Moderator
 
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Midwest USA, Central Illinois
Distribution: SlackwareŽ
Posts: 12,601
Blog Entries: 25

Rep: Reputation: 1981Reputation: 1981Reputation: 1981Reputation: 1981Reputation: 1981Reputation: 1981Reputation: 1981Reputation: 1981Reputation: 1981Reputation: 1981Reputation: 1981
Hi,
Quote:
Originally Posted by jay73 View Post
Well, yes, but if you can spare the money, you might get two hard drives. A small drive will do and shouldn't be too expensive. Keeping each system on a drive of its own it still the best way of avoiding trouble. When I still had windows, I would unplug all drives except one, install windows, then unplug the windows drive and connect the other one(s) and install linux, plug in all the drives and then go into BIOS and make the linux drive the boot drive. This way, your linux bootloader does not overwrite the windows boot loader so you have a completely unaffected windows drive.
I think an extra drive isn't a waste anyway as making back-ups on the same drive as the original data is a bit pointless. If the drive dies, you lose the back-up, too.
What problems are you having with the plugs? Repeat wipes will cause wear. What's wrong with chain loading? You can even use the M$ bootloader! I prefer lilo but grub suits others. Ranish is another useful tool to use as a bootloader. Experienced users can utilize the tools to properly load any OS.
 
Old 06-28-2009, 12:08 PM   #20
jay73
LQ Guru
 
Registered: Nov 2006
Location: Belgium
Distribution: Ubuntu 11.04, Debian testing
Posts: 5,019

Rep: Reputation: 130Reputation: 130
Quote:
What problems are you having with the plugs? Repeat wipes will cause wear. What's wrong with chain loading?
With the plugs? Do you mean why did I unplug drives when I installed windows? If that was the question, then my answer is: because my copy of XP stubbornly refused to install to a system with linux on, even if linux was on a different drive. Really! Now imagine the implications if, at any time, you need/want to reinstall windows. Not possible without wiping your linux system first as well.

I don't see why you mention repeat wipes. I don't recall having said anything about erasing data?

As for chainloading... How would a person boot windows off a secondary drive? Chainloading, exactly. So I'm afraid I don't see the point of that remark either.

Quote:
Experienced users can utilize the tools to properly load any OS.
What?

Last edited by jay73; 06-28-2009 at 12:10 PM.
 
Old 06-28-2009, 01:16 PM   #21
Erik_FL
Member
 
Registered: Sep 2005
Location: Boynton Beach, FL
Distribution: Slackware
Posts: 816

Rep: Reputation: 254Reputation: 254Reputation: 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.Freeman View Post
Ty for the correction about which OS to install first.

Erik FL, I'm probably confusing this with something else but wouldn't reducing to 128 bytes limit the maximum file size? I had this problem with a FAT32 file system(I think) where i was unable to save a file larger than x(i think 4gb or the file i was unable to save was 4gb which was larger than the max file size). IF what i wrote in parenthesis doesn't make sense ignore it as it is kinda irrelevant.
FAT32 does indeed have a limit of 4GB on the maximum size of any one file.

Using 128-byte inodes does not limit the size of files or the amount of data on the disk. It does increase the amount of overhead and slightly reduce the amount of actual space available to store files.

Not all distros will default to using the new 256-byte inodes. So as someone else pointed out, you may not have any problem if you just install the distro normally.

You can tell what size inodes are being used like this.

tune2fs -l /dev/hda2

That's a lower case L character not a one. It doesn't hurt to format your Linux partition manually instead of during the automated installer. It just might not be necessary.

I only recently ran into this problem when suddenly a new release of Slackware no longer worked with a few of my programs such as EXT2IFS for Windows. The grub boot loader also has a patch to support 256-byte inodes so if you use grub you may have to get the patched version. Slackware installs lilo by default but it does have a package for the patched version of grub. This is only a major annoyance if you have already formatted and installed Linux and then want to reformat using 128-byte inodes. It's simple to take care of before you install Linux.

If you are looking to buy more conveneient backup and partition management software that supports both Windows and Linux, I recommend Paragon Hard Disk Backup and Paragon Partition Manager. There are certainly good free programs to do many of the same things. The only problem that I've had with Paragon Partition manager is that it doesn't correctly resize ext2/ext3 partitions. The backup program supports compression, splitting an archive across multiple files and writing multi-disc sets including a restore utility boot image on the first disc. Both programs also work on a PE-Builder boot CD and there are Linux versions available if you prefer to run them using Linux.
 
Old 06-28-2009, 01:51 PM   #22
sycamorex
LQ Veteran
 
Registered: Nov 2005
Location: London
Distribution: Slackware64-current
Posts: 5,819
Blog Entries: 1

Rep: Reputation: 1200Reputation: 1200Reputation: 1200Reputation: 1200Reputation: 1200Reputation: 1200Reputation: 1200Reputation: 1200Reputation: 1200
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrangerman View Post
My first thought is to tell you not to install linux at all. If you have to be convinced I doubt you will take the time needed to learn. If you are willing to learn though.......

If you are going to have more than one pc, I would suggest building the newest and fastest for gaming running windows for the OS. Then take the other pc and install linux for learning.

Words of advice, try to remember when you are working with linux you will be starting from the beginning. Take the time to learn it and remember you didn't know anything about windows when you first started using it.(You had to learn it)
That would be my advice as well. Nobody is going to try to 'convince' you to use linux. Try it and you'll see for yourself if that's what you want. I still like playing some games and that's why I bought PS3 which, to my surprise, is a much more versatile system than I initially thought. I usually use PS3 for media, ie. music, films, browsing the internet, oh and yes, sometimes games (it's a game console after all).
You'll need to install linux and see how motivated you are to 'unlearn' windows and 'learn' linux. You might be disappointed if we tried to 'convince' you to use linux by saying all the good stuff about it and then you'd find that you don't like it at all.
 
Old 06-28-2009, 02:43 PM   #23
Erik_FL
Member
 
Registered: Sep 2005
Location: Boynton Beach, FL
Distribution: Slackware
Posts: 816

Rep: Reputation: 254Reputation: 254Reputation: 254
Not everyone will have the same experience trying to support multiple drives on their computer. Every computer BIOS handles drive ID assignment slightly differently and has different capabilities for booting from drives other than the first one.

Most of the trouble people have with dual booting Windows is because of the inflexible Setup program for Windows. It's actually possible to support many more boot configurations by copying files and making changes after installing Windows.

Windows Setup ALWAYS installs the boot loader (NTLDR or bootmgr) to the first primary partition with a compatible file system on the first hard disk. That's true even if you install Windows to some other hard disk or partition. You can move the move the boot loader files to a different partition later. The partition must be formatted or updated with the correct boot sector and must have a Windows compatible file system. Windows Setup puts ALL boot loaders in the first primary partition and that can be confusing with multiple versions of Windows in different partitions. All the boot loaders are jumbled together in the first primary partition.

The boot sectors written by Windows Setup or other Windows boot sector repair utilities ALWAYS have drive ID 0x80 (the first hard disk drive). I do mean drive and NOT partition here. The utilities work for ANY partition on the first hard disk but NOT other hard disks.

You can't change the drive letter assigned to the Windows partition (from the viewpoint of that OS when its booted). You can move the Windows partition, but you may have to change the "MountedDevices" key in the registry to assign the expected drive letter to the correct partition. Obviously you can't use the same OS to edit the registry since it has to be edited BEFORE it will boot again. The "regedit" program can temporarily load registry hive (files) for other copies of Windows.

The result of all that is that you may have to connect the Windows hard disk as the first drive during Windows installation in order to avoid copying the boot loader files later. That also tends to assign drive letter C to the Windows partition.

After you install Windows there are a number of things that you can do manually.

- Move the Windows boot loader (copy the boot loader files)
- Move the Windows partition
- Patch the Windows boot sector for a different drive ID
- Add menu entries in Windows to "chain" to other boot loaders

The BIOS assigns drive IDs and boot loaders use those to access drives through the BIOS. The drive booted by the BIOS will always use drive ID 0x80.

0x80 - First hard disk
0x81 - Second hard disk
0x82 - Third hard disk
0x83 - Fourth hard disk

Again, these are hard disk drives and NOT partitions or drive letters. The mistake that some people make is to configure their boot loaders and then AFTERWARD change the default boot disk in the BIOS. That usually changes which disk has drive ID 0x80 and assigns it to the new default boot disk. It may also rearrange unrelated drive ID assignments depending on the BIOS. If you're going to change the default boot disk then you may need multiple boot configurations or multiple menu choices to handle the different drive ID assignments. I find it simpler to just leave the BIOS set to boot one particular hard disk first.

Windows is able to "chain" to other boot loaders but not as conveniently as grub or lilo. Windows can chain to a boot sector that has been copied to a file. One can use "dd" in Linux or the DSKPROBE utility in the Windows XP Support Tools to create a copy of a boot sector in a 512-byte file. That is what I usually do to boot Linux in my second hard disk partition. I install grub to the partition boot sector NOT the MBR and then I copy the partition boot sector to a file. I add that file to the Windows boot menu.

In the case where you have moved partitions or disks you may want to leave the standard boot sector in the partition on the hard disk. In that case (even with grub or lilo) you can copy the boot sector to a file and then patch the file with a different drive ID. The drive ID reflects where the disk will be seen by the BIOS and not the expected drive ID of 0x80 written to the standard boot sector. Since each OS boot loader uses a different boot sector, you have to find the details for each one to know what byte is the drive ID. The advantage to NOT patching the actual boot sector is that if you later reconnect the drive as the first drive it will still boot.

Some BIOS software refuses to boot from any other drive besides 0x80 even with the correct drive ID. In that case you pretty much have to use something like grub that can rearrange the drive IDs and "fake out" the BIOS.

The Linux boot loaders lilo and grub can "chain" directly to a boot sector loaded from the hard disk (rather than a file). That's why many people prefer to have grub or lilo boot first, and then chain to Windows. It avoids the extra step of copying a boot sector to a file and changing the Windows boot menu.

Here are some programs that are useful for configuring different boot configurations.

- dd in Linux
- BCDEDIT (change Vista/Windows 7 boot menu)
- BOOTSECT (write a Windows XP or Vista/Windows 7 boot sector)
- A text editor (change BOOT.INI for Windows XP boot menu)
- DKSPROBE (read/write sectors and files, Windows XP Support Tools)
- fdisk or cfdisk in Linux (change the Active "Boot" partition)

Many people don't understand what the MBR (Master Boot Record) is. The Master Boot Record is the first sector on the hard disk (not a drive letter or partition!). It contains the partition table. The software in the MBR ALWAYS runs first, and is loaded directly by the BIOS. The "standard" MBR software written by Windows and many other things, will essentially "jump" to the partition boot sector of the Active "Boot" partition. The Active partition is a flag in the partition table of the MBR. The BIOS knows nothing about partitions or partition boot sectors. It ALWAYS loads and runs the code in the MBR.

The standard MBR code is NOT a Windows invention! It's the normal way to support multiple operating systems on a hard disk. Partitioning programs should write the standard MBR code when you create the first partition on an empty hard disk.

Each primary partition has a Partition Boot Sector. Normally the software in the MBR "jumps" to one of these partition boot sectors (the one marked Active).

Windows boot loaders cannot be installed to the MBR. However, both grub and lilo can be "installed" to the MBR and short circuit the normal choice of an Active "Boot" partition. The only advantage to that is it makes installation simpler. It also makes it impossible for the Windows boot loader to start first.

Windows Vista and Windows 7 look at the MBR for a disk serial number. Installing a boot loader to the MBR can cause Windows to be unable to boot. That's another reason to avoid installing a boot loader directly to the MBR.

Really the only reason to install a Linux boot loader to the MBR is if Linux is the only OS, and nothing is available to write the standard default MBR code. Windows Setup writes that standard code and so can other available programs.

I prefer to install boot loaders to a partition boot sector. In Linux that's done by specifying the device name for the partition and NOT the device name for the hard disk. Then if I want the Linux boot loader to start first I simply use fdisk or cfdisk in Linux and set the Linux partition as the Active "Boot" partition. That also allows me to later change the Active "Boot" partition if I want the Windows boot loader to start first.

You can install a different boot loader to each primary partition using the partition boot sector. That makes four possible boot loaders. Since you can also install something to the MBR that allows a fifth boot loader. By using files with copies of boot sectors you can support any number of boot loaders. You copy the partition boot sector to a file after installing each boot loader. Then install a different boot loader. Files also provide a convenient way to have different boot sectors with different drive IDs.

For most people it makes sense to keep the boot loader in the same partition as the OS that it loads, and then install that boot loader to the partition boot sector of the same partition. Then just make sure to set the Active "Boot" partition to the one you want started first. To do that with Windows, install Windows to the first primary partition on the first hard disk, or copy the boot loader files after installing Windows.
 
Old 06-28-2009, 06:49 PM   #24
bigearsbilly
Senior Member
 
Registered: Mar 2004
Location: england
Distribution: Debian, Mint, Puppy, Raspbian
Posts: 3,420

Rep: Reputation: 198Reputation: 198
games won't work on windoze on a VM.

directX and all that.
 
Old 06-29-2009, 07:38 AM   #25
onebuck
Moderator
 
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Midwest USA, Central Illinois
Distribution: SlackwareŽ
Posts: 12,601
Blog Entries: 25

Rep: Reputation: 1981Reputation: 1981Reputation: 1981Reputation: 1981Reputation: 1981Reputation: 1981Reputation: 1981Reputation: 1981Reputation: 1981Reputation: 1981Reputation: 1981
Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by jay73 View Post
With the plugs? Do you mean why did I unplug drives when I installed windows? If that was the question, then my answer is: because my copy of XP stubbornly refused to install to a system with linux on, even if linux was on a different drive. Really! Now imagine the implications if, at any time, you need/want to reinstall windows. Not possible without wiping your linux system first as well.

I don't see why you mention repeat wipes. I don't recall having said anything about erasing data?

As for chainloading... How would a person boot windows off a secondary drive? Chainloading, exactly. So I'm afraid I don't see the point of that remark either.


What?
Whenever you plug and remove the usb cable you are wiping contacts. Repeated plug action will wipe each time you reinsert or remove the plug. This will wear the contact each time you do this action. If you do this frequently then of course you will start experiencing intermittent signals. I never said anything about wiping a filesystem.

Do a search here on LQ or google to find out about chain loading. It has been covered a lot so you should be able to get existing information so you can understand.
 
  


Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Linux OS To Convince my Wife kstan Linux - General 9 04-29-2007 08:27 PM
How to convince my mother to convert to Linux phantomreaper Linux - Distributions 22 07-11-2006 02:37 AM
How to make M$ look cra**y so I can convince someone to try Linux? :D himm General 17 12-05-2004 09:43 AM
Trying to convince family to make the switch to Linux Fear58 General 13 02-24-2004 03:57 PM
Can you convince me to convert to linux? Sir.Del Linux - General 15 03-24-2002 03:04 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:14 PM.

Main Menu
Advertisement
My LQ
Write for LQ
LinuxQuestions.org is looking for people interested in writing Editorials, Articles, Reviews, and more. If you'd like to contribute content, let us know.
Main Menu
Syndicate
RSS1  Latest Threads
RSS1  LQ News
Twitter: @linuxquestions
Facebook: linuxquestions Google+: linuxquestions
Open Source Consulting | Domain Registration