Well I don't know for sure but from what I gather Wine is done by a group of volunteers that aren't involved in the development of games. (Correct me if I am wrong.) But it seems to me that Wine solves all the problems that people least as reasons why the game developers don't make games for linux. Or any program really. It seems to me that the programming community would succeed 100 times over if they helped Wine progress.

The complaints I hear are as follows:

1)Diversity of Linux
2)Developers time and money is limited
3)Lack of long term support

First the diversity of Linux is one of the things that makes Linux great. Now two distros are 100% alike. Thus whatever your preference you can be confident there is a distro for you. To make games compatible acrossed all Linux distros (created and non-created)you would need to take away this diversity; make Linux distros more like one another. But Wine solves this by being compatible with all distros and thus making it so that Windows games can run on Linux.

Which brings me to my next point. With the improvement of Wine Developers will be able to create one program and have it run on all OSes. Thus making them more money by enlarging the pool of potential buyers while not asking anything more of the Developers. If they test there product on Wine and are sure it works they are covered. Lot easier than changing Linux.

The lack of long term support is next. My people complain that even the games that are made specifically for Linux only really work for 3yr or so. Due to the change in kernel and what not. Well with Wine it goes independent of the Linux os and thus you take that out of the equation. You can run serveral versions of Wine on the same system so by simply install the Wine that works you will always have a game that works.

I have more to say on this issue but I'll give the public a chance to responded be fore a rant further.

OK. "Games" aren't working for you.
You have had a rant because something windowsy isn't working for you. Fair enough.
But what are you doing to advance the progress of wine so it can play your games to your satisfaction? Have you written any useful useful linux code yet?
If you are that interested, get involved with code development. Otherwise ...

--added--
Before writing rants about Wine+Games+Linux, I recommend you
either:
1) Find an existing DirectX-only Windows opensource game. Game must have troubles, bugs or graphical when it is started using Wine.
2) Fix the bugs.
or:
1) Find an OpenGL Windows-only opensource game.
2) Properly port it to Linux.

Both can take months, but when you finish or abandon the task, you'll get perfect idea why not all games are ported to Linux and why not all games are compatible with Wine.

--original long message--

I think that "Game developers" and "programming community" aren't necessarry same people.

And what will you do if product DOESN't work on Wine?
When you use WINE, in addition to the game troubles, you'll get wine bugs AND unimplemented API functions. Fixing WINE bugs in some cases will be too much trouble. Take a look at this, for example: http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6971.

It mostly depends on how the game was made (quality of code, design, etc). Normal game shouldn't rely on kernel-level functions (in most cases it shouldn't ever need them), it'll be better if the game will use some higher-level layer, like OpenGL, SDL, etc. In this case game will be working much longer, even if it is binary only version. (UT2003 still works on Linux. Also does Soldier of Fortune). If game uses shared library for sound/rendering system, then, even if the kernel changes, game can be used, you'll need just to replace the library. Take a look at Lucas Art's games ("Sam and Max: Hit the Road", for example). Running DOS games is trouble even with a dos box, but due to the game engine designe (uses SCUMM interpreter) it was possible to create ScummVM, which allows to run quite old games on newer platforms. The trouble with Wine, Linux and Games is because of wrong engine designs, IMHO.

I don't think that using Windows APIs (including DirectX, etc) for writing linux games is a good idea (I think it is ridiculous, and may be only temporary solution). If you want truly portable game you should use Java (IL2 uses java). If don't want Java and you want to make game that'll live longer than 3 years, you simply shouldn't rely on any low-level functions, that can change over time. Every good (from the programmers point of view) game in general should only use API that can be easily made platform-independant, for example SDL, standart C library, etc. Anyway, if you want game available on Linux, game creator must be interested in that, otherwise WINE alone won't help (I've never heard about succefully running DirectX 10 games on WINE, for example).

Computer in general isn't well suited for games (especially for the very good and long ones) because of it's flexibility (which is a part of the reason why games without bugs doesn't exist anymore), no matter which operating system is installed. Gaming is best on the consoles (Playstation, XBox, etc), because on console you can simply put in CD(DVD/Cartrige/whatever), while on computer you'll be annoyed to death with bugs (game bugs, driver bugs, platform bugs, and WINE bugs), installation troubles, and performance tuning. All this will spoil most of the fun of playing the game.

This brings up a interesting point!

Why should I have to be a coder to enjoy my OS choice? Seems as if someone out there should want to attract the likes of a gamer (they make up no small percentage of users).

I would love to have a Linux only box, but I am still forced to pay/boot Windows in order to play games.

I do believe something should be done if we expect to progress and a community/users.

The point he was making was that you shouldn't rant about stuff if you don't want to help fix it.

You don't have to be a "coder" to "enjoy my OS choice". But if all you want to do is "play games" then you might need to learn a little.

I don't think the linux comunity is interested in "attracting the likes of a gamer". Why should we be interested in how you choose to spend (or, more likely, waste) your time with your "OS of choice"?

We like to use linux because is stable, secure, and does exactly what is needed. The applications that people choose to run on linux are up to them. This includes yourself. Linux runs every application I need to perfection (almost, but I am a forgiving sort of person, and can deal with the occasional "work-around").

If the applications you feel you need ("Games") are not written for linux, then I suggest, again, that you get involved in writing them. I also suggest that the majority of linux users have very little interest in "Games". If that is what you really want, then yes, go get yourself a "Playstation" or "Nintendo". Or just stick with windows. I (and I nearly said "We") don't care.

Just make your choice, and stop complaining. If you don't like linux because it won't run your "games", then you don't have to use it. Nobody is forcing it on you: It doesn't come pre-installed on your PC.

Get a life

[AceofSpades19 just posted, above, and hit the nail on the head ]
I'll shut up now.

I was not trying to come across as bashing Linux!

But as I have said before and I will say again, you have to fit into a certain "niche" to really appreciate what Linux has to offer!

And I would not understand why Linux would not want to attract gamers? Seems to me that in a world where choices are still pretty limited that Linux would want to fill a hole that even a Mac can't fill.

As far as coding, I have tried to understand it! No matter how hard I try, I just can't seem to.

It does seem to me that some work does need done in these areas, if you just use it because it is "stable" does not make a valid point for a reason to switch (which I know that no one cares if I do). Just because it hits home for YOU as a user does not mean it does the same for everyone!

On another note about coding, am I missing something when I try and learn it or is a frame of mind? I mean sometimes I study it and I can almost feel it "click" but not fully (if it does click will I understand it?).

Anyways, I use Linux and love it! I am on the same side as everyone here! It just does need some work for us that cannot comprehend how to code so I can rid myself of MS products!

Wishful thinking that someday might become a reality!

Somethings in coding do not always click right away for me, but after awhile it suddenly clicks

There are games for linux. a lot of them. Check www.happypenguin.org.
There are commercial games for linux, and they doesn't seem to be affected by any of the "problems" listed. (Uplink, Darwinia, Quake 4, Doom3, Unreal Tournament, EVE Online, etc.)

But "game developers should make sure their games are Wine compatilble" point of view is hardly realistic. If game works on Wine already, users will find that out themselves, but if game doesn't work with wine, making game run with Wine (fixing Wine bugs) will be a lot of work, which can be much more complicated than fixing game Engine bugs (simply because Wine will have more code). So many game developers will NOT spend time doing that. So if your favorite game doesn't work with wine you can only try to fix the problem yourself, or (if you can't program), you can try to make Wine better by reporting bugs, at least. Check www.winehq.org, there should be "helping wine" link or something like that.

And again, if you "just want to play", then buy video console. Computeris a bad choice for games/gamers, IMO, regardless of OS used.

Linux is suitable for games already, it's just that game engines should be written with OS-portability in mind from beginning.

Ok everyone of you misunderstood what I was saying here. I was not rantting/complaining that wine doesn't work with the games I have. Or saying that Linux doesn't have enough games. The point I was trying to make was the fact that the industry as a whole would benefit from making a program like wine that would make all programs Universal and work across all platforms whether it be windows, linux, or, yes even, Mac. By have this one thing similar about all OSes Developers would only need to create one version of a particular program. Thus reducing costs and making it a level playing field as for all OSes to compete. Not to mention allow all the OSes to keep doing there own "thing"

I was not bashing WINE. Quiet the contrary. I was praising WINE. If I was attacking anyone/thing it was the developers for not seeing WINE's potential. It has the ability to bring together all OSes without making them too alike one another. WINE has been able to install most any of my programs flawlessly.(e.g Photoshop CS2, IE, COD (1,2,4), FarCry, any games I download off the web, etc.) I was merely saying that it is a great product and it is nonsensical of the major game and program developers not to contribute anything to it. It would help them out, as I previously stated, in the long run.

rebuttal?

cheers

Sounds to me like a pretty classic free rider problem. Given that most (but not all) gaming companies are reasonably small, any effort they put in to WINE would benefit their competition as much as them. Therefore the perception is probably that their competitors will let them do the work, and therefore why should they bother themselves.

I know this argument works against open source in general, but I suspect it's the case

I understand your point but does this really apply to companies like EA, Sun Microsystems, even Novell. These big corporations need to step-up. As they are generally called to do. The only real benefit of have companies of there size to to do the innovative things. They are the ones with the money and the resources. It isn't supposed to be the small companies that create all the new stuff. Though that is generally the case, as far as new great ideas. Why wouldn't Apple contribute. They would have a lot to gain to level the playing field between them and Microsoft. I can see where the smaller companies wouldn't because of your reason but really EA doesn't have to worry about and other Video Game Developer putting them out of business. Same goes for Novell and Sun Micro. The only company that would lose in this scenario would be the all-powerful Microsoft. Which is the competition to all these companies. Microsoft is in videogames(EA), office productivity software(Sun Micro), and OSes(Novell). Microsoft is such a big company they are enemies with a lot of people. Perhaps instead of getting all buddy, buddy with them Novell should be contributing to the WINE project and helping the Linux community. I know some good could come from there cooperation. But more good would come from the WINE project to give a huge hit to Microsoft and do nothing but benefit the rest of the programming world.

They have. Sun has released Solaris for free, is actively involved with the community in the OpenSolaris project, and is porting Java to the GPL license. I would call that a HUGE step up. Novell is involved in Linux already. Also, these companies have nothing to do with games, since they are not gaming companies, but hardware and software companies designed for business.

Why not? Why should only the BIG companies be allowed to have new and innovative ideas? Even the big companies at one point were small companies. They didn't just spring up over night.

To WINE? Why should they? They have their own plan with Macs, iphones and ipods. As for open source stuff, they have contributed, Darwin. Sure, not anything for gaming, but thats because they are not focused on that.

(IMO) Look, if game developers don't release versions of game for other platforms/operating system, this clearly means that they don't care about other platforms/operating systems, about compatibility with other platform, and about possibly running their game with wine (any game with StarForce clearly wasn't meant to be run on Linux). It is easier and wiser to make game potentially portable from beginning than (after a year of game engine development) to fix wine bugs that might prevent game from working. Those game developers, who care about portability port their games without using wine and without much troubles (see ID software).

In the end any BIG company will care only about money and profit. How much profit will supporting WINE bring, and how much it will cost? (what's the percentage of Linux gamers compared to total number of gamers, for example?)

Why should game developers help WINE? What do they get by doing so? Money, Profit, Market..? Think again.

There are no returns for gaming companies. If game companies had bothered about gaming on Linux, WINE wouldn't even exist in the first place.