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Old 07-17-2013, 07:58 AM   #61
H_TeXMeX_H
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
This makes me wonder why you want to kill the people that stand up against oppressive regimes.
Because they aren't really standing up against oppressive regimes. They are traitors and/or agents on a mission to destroy more of your rights.
 
Old 07-17-2013, 09:09 AM   #62
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Infamy! Infamy! They've all got it in for me.
-- Carry On Cleo
 
Old 07-17-2013, 01:40 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
Because they aren't really standing up against oppressive regimes.
I don't quite get that. How else should they stand up against oppressive regimes other than making the world know about their crimes?
Quote:
They are traitors and/or agents on a mission to destroy more of your rights.
Would you like to elaborate that? I don't quite get how showing to the world how they kick your rights in the dirt is destroying your rights. Which rights do you mean? Is there a right not to know of the crimes against you and your constitution?
 
Old 07-17-2013, 05:23 PM   #64
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Logic has been thrown out the window.

If anyone shows oppression for what it really is they are going to be marked as traitors and apparently deserve to be executed because it is obvious they are really trying to do you more harm than the government is.

I suggest we all hide under our pillows because the sun is trying to give us skin cancer.
 
Old 07-18-2013, 03:09 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
I don't quite get that. How else should they stand up against oppressive regimes other than making the world know about their crimes?
Would you like to elaborate that? I don't quite get how showing to the world how they kick your rights in the dirt is destroying your rights. Which rights do you mean? Is there a right not to know of the crimes against you and your constitution?
Doing it in a sane way, like filing a lawsuit. That's what the EFF has now done.

Some things that need explaining:
1) Why is he in China / Russia (the enemies) ? So that he can be used as an example of how bad whistleblowers can be. This will likely lead to more severe legislation against whistleblowers, when in fact it should have lead to the punishment of a traitor. It may also lead to increased political tensions, see the EU stopping information sharing with the US, see Venezuela being brought into the conflict (possibly the reason for all of this), and more will likely follow.

2) Why is he all over the news ? If he really had important information, I'm sure he would be silenced by the agencies, or the news channels would receive a gag order, as they usually do. You don't deal with a rouge agent by putting him on all the news channels, so maybe he's still an agent. This will also likely lead to more severe legislation against whistleblowers, and giving more power to govm'nt agencies because of their apparent lack of power.

3) Much like Assange, why hasn't he said anything that we don't already know about, or have suspected ? Not only that, but if he had proof, why not file a lawsuit ? It doesn't add up. Why go rogue and release this mildly entertaining information ?
 
Old 07-18-2013, 06:46 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
Doing it in a sane way, like filing a lawsuit. That's what the EFF has now done.
The EFF (and plenty of other organizations) can only file a lawsuit because of the whistleblowing of Snowden. There are other cases where the US government practically stops lawsuits against them with saying that this case would cause them to release secret information.

Quote:
Why is he in China / Russia (the enemies) ?
Simple answer: Because we can see how the US handle whistleblowers with the example of Bradley Manning. Solitary confinement for months, stripping him naked in the night (tings that can be seen as torture). This isn't the 60's anymore, where whistleblowers are released on bail and go on a rally.
Quote:
This will likely lead to more severe legislation against whistleblowers, when in fact it should have lead to the punishment of a traitor.
Do you mean that suddenly you want to punish the real criminals (those who violated the constitution on a massive scale)?
Quote:
It may also lead to increased political tensions, see the EU stopping information sharing with the US, see Venezuela being brought into the conflict (possibly the reason for all of this), and more will likely follow.
All these political tensions are not caused by Snowden, but by the actions of the US government. They have done the illegal things and they were caught doing it.
Quote:
Why is he all over the news ? If he really had important information, I'm sure he would be silenced by the agencies, or the news channels would receive a gag order, as they usually do.
Maybe that is the reason why he has chosen to publish his information in foreign newspapers also? Also, as his lawyer said, he has spread his information around the world and in case something happens to Snowden the information will be released. Think just for a moment that illegally spying on their own citizens is only the tip of the iceberg.
 
Old 07-18-2013, 08:13 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
All these political tensions are not caused by Snowden, but by the actions of the US government. They have done the illegal things and they were caught doing it.
Maybe that is the reason why he has chosen to publish his information in foreign newspapers also? Also, as his lawyer said, he has spread his information around the world and in case something happens to Snowden the information will be released. Think just for a moment that illegally spying on their own citizens is only the tip of the iceberg.
They are caused in part by Snowden, because he released the information. Don't think that other agencies don't spy on their citizens just as much. There was an article about France recently on this topic.

If it would have been only foreign news that were focusing on this story I would believe you. However, it is all news, even in the US. I would have at least expected a gag order on US news, and maybe even EU news.

Assange did much the same, putting information out just in case. Nothing came of it.

I would have to agree that this illegal spying in the USA is only the tip of the iceberg. If Snowden were a hero, he would release conclusive proof of the rest. If he does, then he's a hero in my book. If he doesn't, then he is an agent or a traitor. Currently, he is there just to be the center of attention, pass new legislation, and over nothing of great importance (yet).
 
Old 07-18-2013, 08:43 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
They are caused in part by Snowden, because he released the information. Don't think that other agencies don't spy on their citizens just as much. There was an article about France recently on this topic.
If the US government wouldn't have done those actions Snowden would have nothing to report, so Snowden can be removed from this, these tensions are solely in the responsibility of the government. You can't blame an upright citizen for reporting violations of the constitution instead of the violators.
Quote:
If it would have been only foreign news that were focusing on this story I would believe you. However, it is all news, even in the US. I would have at least expected a gag order on US news, and maybe even EU news.
You may not have noticed this, but we live in the times of the Internet. Any information released anywhere is also accessible to US citizens. Also, I seriously doubt that the US government has the abilities to put a gag on EU news. By the way, are you seriously recommending that they violate the freedom of the press to cover up their other violations of the constitution?
Quote:
If Snowden were a hero, he would release conclusive proof of the rest. If he does, then he's a hero in my book. If he doesn't, then he is an agent or a traitor.
I find it quite funny how you follow a duck and cover policy, but expect others to act on a different moral code.
 
Old 07-18-2013, 09:35 AM   #69
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Sigh, sux to be us.

Attachment 13006




But if you sort it per 100,000 China goes way down the list:

Attachment 13007

And if you sort out non violent prisoners. The USA statistics would go down 50%. I live in Texas. We like to lock up everyone for everything and if you piss us off. We just might kill ya through the court system.

So if Snowden was sent here. I guess some on this forum would get their wish.

Last edited by rokytnji; 12-03-2013 at 11:00 PM.
 
Old 07-18-2013, 10:19 AM   #70
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I believe that Tex is inferring, in a round about way, that the whole Snowden thing, including Snowden himself, is just a set up - a "media circus" staged in order to gain public support as a pretext to force through more surveillance/anti terror/secrecy legislation and erode even more personal freedom, etc.

I'm not saying I agree, just that it's possible... and set up or not, it's likely to have that effect anyway.

roky, those stats are depressing.

Last edited by cynwulf; 07-18-2013 at 10:21 AM.
 
Old 07-18-2013, 10:23 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
If the US government wouldn't have done those actions Snowden would have nothing to report, so Snowden can be removed from this, these tensions are solely in the responsibility of the government. You can't blame an upright citizen for reporting violations of the constitution instead of the violators.
You may not have noticed this, but we live in the times of the Internet. Any information released anywhere is also accessible to US citizens. Also, I seriously doubt that the US government has the abilities to put a gag on EU news. By the way, are you seriously recommending that they violate the freedom of the press to cover up their other violations of the constitution?
I find it quite funny how you follow a duck and cover policy, but expect others to act on a different moral code.
I can blame him because of the way in which he disclosed the information. If he had done it differently, it would have been less harmful.

We may live in the times of the internet, but the US is a rather isolated place. People there get their news for carefully controlled sources. It would have been as easy as gag ordering the mainstream news websites. That would have been enough to keep 99% of the population in the dark.

The EU would have been more of an issue, but I'm sure they have most of the countries covered.

There is no such thing as freedom of press, at least when it comes to the govm'nt. If the NSA says "don't print it", they will oblige.

I duck and cover, but others choose not to. I didn't influence their decision. However, if they want to prove themselves as something, they should act accordingly. The information disclosed by Snowden is minor and of no great importance. You think anything will change for the better because of it ? I'm 99% sure that it will change for the worse.

He should have kept information disclosure within the law. After all, he said it himself, he "has done nothing wrong", then what do you have to fear ? Take them to court. If he "has done nothing wrong" then why doesn't he come back to the US ? I'm sure there is a reason. Let me guess, it's because he is a hero and the govm'nt is oppressive. Or is it because he is a traitor, and they'll give him the death penalty ? I guess we'll never know unless he does come back.

Last edited by H_TeXMeX_H; 07-18-2013 at 10:26 AM.
 
Old 07-18-2013, 06:24 PM   #72
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I find it interesting that people who expose and stand up to oppression are bad yet people who run away from it and don't even attempt to help others are pillars of society.

Just to even things up Russia jailed Navalny (protest leader). America is disappointed.
 
Old 07-18-2013, 07:20 PM   #73
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Arrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by k3lt01 View Post
I find it interesting that people who expose and stand up to oppression are bad yet people who run away from it and don't even attempt to help others are pillars of society.

Just to even things up Russia jailed Navalny (protest leader). America is disappointed.
Yeah, America is disappointed.

That is because in certain cases. Embezzlement of funds can be legal or low priority for prosecution.

Because you have this

But then they do this?

Which leads to this.


(remember my previous comment)
Quote:
The main news agencies now describe Snowden as a Leaker instead of a Whiste Blower
and rich well to do News contributors (what a joke that is, cushy ass job though) throw the word traitor around like
a dog barking for bacon.

So Snowden, Manning, any other citizen that does not turn a blind eye like
http://www.bagnewsnotes.com/files/20...-Arrested1.jpg
does not stand a snow balls chance in hell in the American court. But stealing BIG is OK.

Last edited by rokytnji; 07-18-2013 at 07:25 PM.
 
Old 07-18-2013, 08:10 PM   #74
k3lt01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rokytnji View Post
Yeah, America is disappointed.

That is because in certain cases. Embezzlement of funds can be legal or low priority for prosecution.

Because you have this

But then they do this?

Which leads to this.


(remember my previous comment)


and rich well to do News contributors (what a joke that is, cushy ass job though) throw the word traitor around like
a dog barking for bacon.

So Snowden, Manning, any other citizen that does not turn a blind eye like
http://www.bagnewsnotes.com/files/20...-Arrested1.jpg
does not stand a snow balls chance in hell in the American court. But stealing BIG is OK.
Meanwhile Detroit is about to file for bankruptcy.

That's ok lets hunt down people who try to protect the rest of us, hound them and call them names, accuse them of things without evidence, make false assumptions and post them online, while the governments etc get away with running not only their cities and countries down but bring the world economy to such a state that the global ripple effect has lasted longer than the Great Depression. Not to mention the fact that they spy on citizens without due legal safeguards.

If this is how things should really be then Snowden must be a real bad person

Last edited by k3lt01; 07-18-2013 at 08:12 PM.
 
Old 07-18-2013, 08:34 PM   #75
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Quote:
And Detroit's government has been hit by a string of corruption scandals over the years.
Naw, say it aint so. The prison system must be full then.

Quote:
The murder rate is at a 40-year high and only one third of the its ambulances were in service in early 2013.
Free trade, Capitalism, which encourages poverty for most and riches for the few makes that as no surprise to me.
Violence on the streets stems from poverty. You don't see board members waving gats over turf wars around the board table.

Quote:
In 2012, three California cities - Stockton, Mammoth Lakes and San Bernardino - took the step.
Spent a little time in Berdo back in the 80's. Rough town with some tough bikers. Working class town away from Hollywood. No DRM noticeable there.

Not much hope alive lately with all the info posted here in this thread. Manning is screwed. Snowden is exiled at best. Others are ignored and die the slow death. It took years to get Canadian draft dodgers pardoned after Viet Nam War. And don't give me that traitor draft dodger crap. I am former USMC.
Rich kids did not have to dodge anything. One of a couple of former and current politicians come to mind about that.

Quote:
roky, those stats are depressing.
I feel ya. Now where is my SOMA.
 
  


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