The Faith & Religion mega Thread

May I take the opportunity to wish all Christians on this thread a happy and holy Easter, all Jews gut yomtev and everybody else lots of easter eggs!

Thanks, hazel but JWs pass on Easter. In line with Lue 22:19,20, we do a Memorial of Jesus death as a sinless human on Nisan 14th by the Jewish Calendar. JWs don't celebrate anything in connection with our faith.

Thinking of the Theology behind Easter, nobody ever explained to me what eggs, 'bunnies' or rabbits have to do with the death of Jesus? It seems nore like a (pagan) fertility thing to me. And Spring would be the time for pagan fertility rites. And nobody ever explained why the "body & blood of Christ" is distributed in round white compressed disks? Many religions do that, which is easy to reconcile with Sun Worship, but difficult to reconcile with Christianity.

Originally Posted by enorbet To be perfectly honest and clear I wish the best for everyone on this forum, including business_kid and even mrmazda, despite my general fuzzy conclusions they are already set in stone and not only won't but can't consider any authority other than their personal take on Christian scripture as what they see as the literal word of God, any evidence to the contrary notwithstanding and immediately dismissed as heresy.

Thanks for that. I'm sure your feelings are reciprocated among the members with whom you genuinely disagree. I would ask that you (as I will try to) allow your genuinely benign sentiments to mollify your more extreme comments as it would allow a more peaceful & constructive atmosphere here generally. People are rarely convinced by abuse.

To make some sense of this mess, it is necessary to accept some ultimate authority with the power to correct other sources. You have chosen science. I don't agree with Mrmazda, but there is an ideological split. We accept God, & Scripture. Just as you can't disprove or verify God's existence, we can't prove it to a doubter. But we can discern it. Scientific information has changed in the last 10 years, and it will change in the next 10. So science is always on the move in the areas it allows itself to move in. So the fact that mere human science jumps up and down and says we're wrong today doesn't concern us. It's like you're on AM and I'm on FM.

On your son, give him time and patience. Listen to him. If he goes to the supernatural, mediums or the like, then rapidly call a halt. When-Someone-you-love-dies/ may help.

Originally Posted by business_kid nobody ever explained why the "body & blood of Christ" is distributed in round white compressed disks? Many religions do that, which is easy to reconcile with Sun Worship, but difficult to reconcile with Christianity..

Most churches I've been in serve compressed little white squares. It's done to my knowledge for: 1-sanitary considerations; 2-convenience; 3-to facilitate minimum distribution time with large congregations, and likely 4-low cost. The ceremony is based upon Mark 14:22-25, Luke 22:18-20 &1 Corinthians 11:23-25.

Lee Strobel
former staunch atheist
award winning former investigative reporter and legal editor of Chicago Tribune
hear/see his 25 minute interview on evidence of the resurrection on Daystar Network @21:00 EDT tonight

Thank you, mrmazda for the attempt but I missed it (reading this almost 2 hours too late) but in all honesty I wouldn't have given it 25 minutes anyway. Firstly, I am not swayed by other's conclusions on irreconcilable events, especially as a stand alone opinion. To be evidence repeatable corroboration is required. For me there is no difference in "I used to be an atheist and after my wife's conversion I became a Christian" and "I used to not believe in aliens but after my wife saw a UFO and I looked deeper into it, I became a believer". That is not how logical conclusions are reached.

Also, I see no evidence that Mr Strobel ever even mentioned being an atheist at any time until after he became a Christian. Maybe he actually was but after-the-fact of conversion substantially reduces reliability, especially since not only did he convert, he became a Minister whose livelihood partly depends on Believers.

Thank you for your seemingly kind words, business_kid, but I am somewhat concerned you've at least implied I have been abusive. Please do cite an example of my being abusive. Attacking people IS abusive but attacking ideas is NOT. Granted some people have their identity so tied up in their beliefs that they see them, as equivalent, but that is not defensible in an environment of Free Speech. I've attacked nobody to my knowledge and haven't ever "Yelled 'Fire!' in a crowded theater". I invite you to correct me if I am mistaken.

EDIT: (Added Later) Almost forgot, well, did and then remembered. I had a great conversation with my Son today and my characterization of "coming up for air" seems to be pretty accurate. He brought up his Mother visiting him in his sleep again and added all on his own, "I realize it could have been a dream, just my subconscious working things out, but for now I believe she did contact me". Then he told me of an event that finally hit him confirming that "when addicted we can't easily realize just how sick we are. I'm done with alcohol.". At the very least this is very encouraging.

Thanks to everyone for your encouraging support.

I will do my best, sundialsvcs, to keep my mouth shut on Apollo as I stated, but I do hope you watch Artemus Live Online when Deep Space Travel with 4 astronauts this time happens and report your impressions compared to those you had as a child.

Originally Posted by enorbet Thank you, mrmazda for the attempt but I missed it (reading this almost 2 hours too late) but in all honesty I wouldn't have given it 25 minutes anyway. Firstly, I am not swayed by other's conclusions on irreconcilable events, especially as a stand alone opinion. To be evidence repeatable corroboration is required.

It wasn't meant for anyone specifically, but I did hope, given the value you put on evidence, that you might have interest in his presentation of the evidence he spent 2 years personally assessing before ending his career as investigative reporter for one of the very biggest and oldest newspaper companies.

"...strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matthew 7:14 KJV

Also, I see no evidence that Mr Strobel ever even mentioned being an atheist at any time until after he became a Christian.

Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. He explained it was well known among Tribune staff, and particularly his boss. Until tonight on 60 Minutes, I wasn't aware that what "we" know about the universe was supposed to be about 4%. I had thought the claim to be in the teens.

At the end of the John Ankerberg Show he was on was mentioned that today's show is or will soon be available via the internet. Looks like here is it.

Thank you. mrmazda. I watched 23 minutes of that video and Mr Strobel was more interesting than I expected. He seems a decent man and since he claimed to have been so immoral before "it would curl your hair", I'm glad for him that he found some way to improve his life. Also, I no longer have substantial doubts he was ever some sort of atheist. In his own way he may well have considered himself an atheist. Be careful though, atheism is not a religion. Ideally, it is the antithesis of religion. Various people have a very wide variety of ways to consider themselves atheist, some from irrational means like anger or severe disappointment. Perhaps Mr Strobel was that sort as something drive him to immorality and alcohol.

That said I was surprised that his journalism job apparently centered around the US legal system. The surprise comes from knowing that since modern forensic science like fingerprinting and especially DNA has proven so valuable and eyewitness accounts conversely so unreliable, I was surprised Mr Strobel considered not only eyewitness accounts as valid evidence but 2000 year old alleged eyewitness accounts by demonstrably superstitious people, many if not most of whom were already Believers. Long story short, unlike Mr Strobel I have extremely little confidence in those alleged eyewitness accounts and that was the only sort of evidence he mentions.

That was enough for him and thankfully he turned that into a positive change in his life. Whatever twirls yer beanie, right? Naturally, given the exposure I've had to alcoholism in my ex wife and Son, I'm especially glad for him and his whole family that he rid himself of such a terrible burden.

Anyway, you have my sincere thanks as it was at least interesting, just in no way compelling as actual evidence.

Originally Posted by mrmazda Most churches I've been in serve compressed little white squares. It's done to my knowledge for: 1-sanitary considerations; 2-convenience; 3-to facilitate minimum distribution time with large congregations, and likely 4-low cost. The ceremony is based upon Mark 14:22-25, Luke 22:18-20 &1 Corinthians 11:23-25.

Think about it. Jesus & the Apostles had just eaten the Passover meal of roast Lamb, (brown) unfermented bread and bitter greens. Everything was 'sourdough' at the time. No leaven was added. But this takes time. Bread rose naturally because a natural yeast grows on the wheat, which acts on the flour in the presence of water and a little wheat. Weedkiller destroys it. I can buy sourdough here in Ireland. But I'd be surprised if you can in the excited States. In scripture, leaven also signifies corruption. On Passover night, there was no time. So the bread was flat. The Jews were remembering that. The bread at our annual memorial is brown flatbread broken in pieces. It's passed on a plate from row to row.

Now round white discs were used as "Communion with the Gods" in sun worship in 4th century Rome. And the priest got a bigger one. And it was paraded in the fanciest holder they could arrange. Google "Monstrance" and check out the images.

There was a slow marriage of sorts between Mithraic sun worship (The Roman State religion) and a corrupt form of Christianity that existed in the 4th century. For sure they took on board the 7 level hierarchy of Mithras worship and it's mostly alive and well in today's Catholicism. I'm pretty sure they took the round white disks. Sun worshippers came out with most of the practises, forms of worship. Christianity got a few, and it got the brand names. So the Saturnalia became Christmas, etc. etc. Christians had refused to worship statues under Diocletian's Persecution, but that changed too. But a generation later, the brand names triumphed and the "Established Church" emerged.

@enorbet: If this time "the radiation problem has been solved" and we can actually carry out a provably successful lunar landing, I will be the first to celebrate.

It wasn't easy for my six-year old self to realize that what he was watching with so much national fanfare was fake. I don't want to have that experience again. I would be overjoyed to find, yet in my lifetime, that it really did happen this time.

But I continue to fear that the immediate pursuit of a "manned landing" is still being driven by political hubris, and not by appropriate scientific caution. As I have said, I would spend the next many years sending robotic probes to the Moon – to objectively ascertain the conditions there and on the way there. I would launch one probe within days of an actual solar storm to assess what might be "worst case." I would send a robotic probe which would land on the moon, extract core samples, then successfully blast off from the Moon and return to Earth. Thus completing all stages of the proposed human mission. Leaving as little as possible to chance. I would repeat this a half-dozen times without one failure before contemplating any human mission ... assuming that we had proved that our radiation shielding and space suits were now correct.

If we lost any of those probes, we would have lost only a robot. We should be damned sure(!) before we send people ... and I continue to fear that we are not. "Pride goeth before the z-z-z-zzzap!" And a state funeral or memorial service won't be enough if that happens.

@sundialsvcs: I don't want to get involved in the discussion you and enorbet are having. But have you ever thought that these days it's easy for Governments to track the path of rockets? So any falsehood as to a landing would require the conspiratorial silence of basically every astronomer with a decent telescope at his disposal? Not to mind controllers of weapons-grade orbiting satellites belonging to opposing Governments?

As for the radiation argument, I know Gorbachev and other Russians had no hesitation in sending folks to (pretty awful) radiation deaths during the Chernobyl clean-up. I'm sure space travellers would get what protection was there. The lauch would be postponed if solar flares were about. But is the U.S. that different? Really?

Since this time you brought it up I will respond but only to these above points.

The "radiation problem has been solved" since 1969. Look at the path taken to see that NASA avoided the bulk of the Van Allen belts, the higher concentration to deal with. The main capsule could not have been more heavily shielded since it had to be able to liftoff from the Moon's surface on return, so it was indeed vulnerable during the rest of the path IF a solar flare occurred. However the that contingency was planned for since we have several minutes before that radiation burst could travel 93,000,000 miles and the Apollo astronauts would have migrated "below decks" to avoid a hazardous dose.

As a 6 year old you may have thought, "Why didn't they use lead? Is human life less valuable than the expense to reach orbit?" but lead isn't good shielding against cosmic rays. When cosmic rays strike lead, lead gives off nasty nasty radioactive particles FAR more dangerous (and in a closed space) than the cosmic rays. NASA did consider what was the least possible risk, especially after the oxygen fire that killed 3 on the ground. Apollo was considerably less risky than routine voyages on the open oceans of Earth and vastly less risky than driving cars above 45mph in congested areas.

Part of the reason you are spot on regarding risk and also why NASA must be so careful is had the Nina, Pinta, and the Santa Maria, like so many seagoing vessels capsized or broken apart from a squall or something it would be weeks or months, possibly years, before anyone realized they were all dead and there would never be a message or a picture, let alone live action video.

Every explorer ever since the beginning of Life itself accepts risk. Countless lives were lost just to populate all the "corners" of the Earth, to make land and air travel reliably safe and even the food we eat, though one can effectively argue that much of processed food has been and still is rather risky.

While the existence and especially the precise placement of the laser reflectors is strong evidence that humans did walk and ride on our Moon, that is perhaps a bit too esoteric, requiring technology that only exists on a few dozen facilities but closer to home, that Soviet Russia, among others, possessed radar capable of tracking Apollo and given the Space Race which was actually a deadlock in every sense of that word for a time, and that it would have been a history changing coup to discredit Apollo should be extremely compelling to anyone who lived through The Cold War. In my view the only reason there were ZERO... let that sink in, sundialsvcs,... ZERO... attacks by Soviet Russia, real or propaganda, against the facts of Apollo is that they knew well that dozens of facilities around the world also had such radar capabilities and were actively tracking them too. Any attempt at discrediting Apollo with any even plausible data or propaganda would have only added to their crestfallen state as "sore loser".

So the Soviets just accepted defeat because they knew it was true as did every other technological nation.

Originally Posted by sundialsvcs @enorbet: If this time "the radiation problem has been solved" and we can actually carry out a provably successful lunar landing, I will be the first to celebrate.

What would you consider proof of a successful lunar landing? Not video I guess, because we have one of the 1969 "landing", and it's only gotten easier to fake it since then. Bringing back physical moon rocks wouldn't help, since we allegedly already have those too. Is there anything that could work short of the astronauts painting a mile+ wide sign on the moon that would be visible to the naked eye? (sadly, I expect this would require too much oxygen to actually accomplish)

Originally Posted by enorbet Soviet Russia, among others, possessed radar capable of tracking Apollo

I thought they did, but wasn't sure of the details. Was that ground based radar or satellite-borne?