The Faith & Religion mega Thread

now it gets elevated.
Ultimate Abstract Truth

something that is abstract is not a solid tangible thing even. that is the only truth in an abstract.

..and now we are at an Ultimate Abstract Truth. Before the Earth existed and long past it's fate of being swallowed by the Sun, A = A, 1 = 1, was and will be True. More simply put in concrete terms Any One Thing is Itself, and one Thing considered with another One thing equals Two Things.

where is the abstract in that? oh I see it that being

Before the Earth existed and long past it's fate of being swallowed by the Sun

you sure do like to mix water with oil ...


Before the Earth existed and long past it's fate of being swallowed by the Sun


when was the earth ever in danger of being swallowed by the sun?

lies with truths or as you might put it I do not lie. knowingly anyways.

So, if it's unprovable sell it! Snake oils works best if it deludes you...

And: not was, will be...



Edit:

when was the earth ever in danger of being swallowed by the sun?

as if it was needed‽ (The edit not necessarily the sun but all's open to "interpretations*!" )

...deludes or better yet drugs as brains do.

Originally Posted by jamison20000e So, if it's unprovable sell it! Snake oils works best if it deludes you...

lol, I think the snake oil salesman would have better luck somehow...

To All, Including Myself (We all fall down from time to time)
Please try to argue the arguments and not just with people, that is if successful resolution in some truism is at all important to You/Us/Me.

Originally Posted by DavidMcCann (reversed in order for consideration) Never use arguments from history, unless you actually know some. Did I mention the condescending rudeness of atheists?

Common pitfall of finger-pointing? One out, four back?

Originally Posted by DavidMcCann The evidence for the Earth being a sphere was known to the Greeks and taught to every medieval student. Under certain conditions, consensus gentium works: see the writings of Thomas Reid and Ludwig Wittgenstein.

I think it is important to remember that understanding that the Earth is a sphere was generally obvious even 10,000 years ago by physical, local observation given sufficient line of sight. Knowing it for a fact (outside of sensual experience) came from the Mathematics of Eratosthenes who calculated the dimensions of the Earth to within 5-17% accuracy in ~240 BC by measuring the shadows produced by the Sun at the same time of day at different locations on the arc of the Earth, which are measurable distances even at that time. From that the other distances and characteristics can be mathematically deduced.

The point of this is to note that consensus gentium is at best, as Plato put it, Right Opinion (doxa) which, although having some value, is vastly outweighed by Genuine Knowledge (episteme). Even a 17% off measurement trumps Right Opinion, which is why it is a travesty for so many laymen to wrongly demean "Theory" in the scientific sense of that word..... OR to elevate consensus gentium to any more than it is - sometimes, a good guess.

If you eat too much chocolate in a dream ten years after giving up chocolate because it made you shakey, will it not taste and feel the same in the dream

...living in a dream world is a necessary evil but evil is not like rot.

Originally Posted by enorbet To All, Including Myself (We all fall down from time to time) Please try to argue the arguments and not just with people, that is if successful resolution in some truism is at all important to You/Us/Me.

talk about an abstract thought.

where the reality is that the idea is coming out of a human not a rock.

an atheist Idealism to try and makes things (sound) right in this world and still kill the ones that do not believe what the atheist believe. Then that might not even be a complete truth, because they will even kill there own as well. Wait - the idea that is behind the argument kills not the atheist people.

ie

Hitler
Stalin
Idi Amin

etc...

and of course "we" cannot attribute it to them personally only because it is only an argument that they were having

Originally Posted by BW-userx now it gets elevated. Ultimate Abstract Truth something that is abstract is not a solid tangible thing even. that is the only truth in an abstract.

Really? Is it not both abstract AND tangible to you that 1 + 1 = 2?

Originally Posted by BW-userx Before the Earth existed and long past it's fate of being swallowed by the Sun when was the earth ever in danger of being swallowed by the sun?

It always has been in that danger since the Solar System formed. The "parent" of Solar Systems is each locality's accretion mass which determines the mass of the star that will form at the center. That mass determines it's life characteristics and ultimate fate and since yellow suns like ours are common in the Universe we can see many in various stages of their "lives" and the ultimate fate is to swell into a Red Giant whose outer surface will likely exceed the orbit of our Earth in a few billion years.

See, for example, --- Wikipedia - Future of Earth ---

Originally Posted by BW-userx lies with truths or as you might put it I do not lie. knowingly anyways.

I've politely asked that you cease calling me a liar unless you can prove it. So far you haven't even proved anything I've written that you've labeled a lie as even mistaken or untrue, so now you only make yourself look foolish by persisting. Please now continue.... "give 'em enough rope"....

Originally Posted by BW-userx talk about an abstract thought.

Yes...and your point?

Originally Posted by BW-userx where the reality is that the idea is coming out of a human not a rock.

Since we have no evidence that rocks have ideas but we do have evidence ideas are common to humans, again...what's your point?

Originally Posted by BW-userx an atheist Idealism to try and makes things (sound) right in this world and still kill the ones that do not believe what the atheist believe. Then that might not even be a complete truth, because they will even kill there own as well. Wait - the idea that is behind the argument kills not the atheist people. ie Hitler Stalin Idi Amin etc... and of course "we" cannot attribute it to them personally only because it is only an argument that they were having

Wow! Godwin's Law gets yet another proof of concept! Please inform me as to what you imagine, I, or anyone, has to gain from "sounding right"? Oh wait... I get it. I, and other atheists (despite the fact that we don't believe in belief let alone those about supernatural deities) much like Hitler (hmmm except he was a Christian) , Stalin and Idi Amin are evil purveyors of our Lord Satan's twisted desires. Is that about right? Please, do burp again for us OK?

Originally Posted by enorbet Really? Is it not both abstract AND tangible to you that 1 + 1 = 2?

NO it is a truth, and that truth as far as 1 being 1 is only 1 is because man defined it to be 1 by the use of a numbering system that he came up with using the symbol(s) to denote 1 as 1 and 2 as 2 and so on and so forth, whereas it could have easily been denoted as

3 is 1 where the 3 is only the symbol used to denote 1. still the truth is that what ever it is it is itself and it is not something else.
There is no abstract present.

Originally Posted by enorbet It always has been in that danger since the Solar System formed. The "parent" of Solar Systems is each locality's accretion mass which determines the mass of the star that will form at the center. That mass determines it's life characteristics and ultimate fate and since yellow suns like ours are common in the Universe we can see many in various stages of their "lives" and the ultimate fate is to swell into a Red Giant whose outer surface will likely exceed the orbit of our Earth in a few billion years. See, for example, --- Wikipedia - Future of Earth --- I've politely asked that you cease calling me a liar unless you can prove it. So far you haven't even proved anything I've written that you've labeled a lie as even mistaken or untrue, so now you only make yourself look foolish by persisting. Please now continue.... "give 'em enough rope"....

Where did you get that Idea?

I did not define the meaning of the word lie. some other man did. something that is not a truth is a lie. Boolean simplicity wether or not one knows he or she is actually stating an UN-Truth does not matter. it still is not a truth therefore a lie. If this same said UN-truth is taken for an actual truth then the very same results SHALL happen, error.

Just because of bunch of lairs got together and decided on how to define the word lie just so they can provided a means to deny it. Is not my fault. In the land I live in I have no such rule of separating it into two parts when the end point is always the same result. Regardless if it is done in knowledge of it or not

ERROR is always the result.


simple math.

@ BW-userx and re: Lies - Okay for the sake of argument we can dismiss the aspect of lying that is "willfull deceit" and only deal with untruth. Please, Sir, pick any one of my purported "lies" and prove it an untruth. By all means, take your time and do your homework. It's all here for all to see and quote. Give the forum some actual evidence not just your preachy opinions for a change....or don't and keep building the case that you are acting like a delusional, implacable, sanctimonious elitist. Your choice.

Originally Posted by enorbet Yes...and your point? Since we have no evidence that rocks have ideas but we do have evidence ideas are common to humans, again...what's your point?

childish arguments --

Originally Posted by enorbet Wow! Godwin's Law gets yet another proof of concept! Please inform me as to what you imagine, I, or anyone, has to gain from "sounding right"?

that is called a sense of self worth and self righteousness.

Originally Posted by enorbet Oh wait... I get it. I, and other atheists (despite the fact that we don't believe in belief let alone those about supernatural deities) much like Hitler (hmmm except he was a Christian) ,

No Christian tried to obtain Satan for power.

Originally Posted by enorbet Stalin and Idi Amin are evil purveyors of our Lord Satan's twisted desires. Is that about right? Please, do burp again for us OK?

funny you should mention that burb, you never did actually get back to me on what was really important. instead you did what?

worried about some stupid crap you didn't even say. and still did not prove that you did not say it you only said you "looked" into it to be sure but never showed proof of it. If you looked into it then proof can be shown by you.

Throughout the history of the Soviet Union (1922–1991), there were periods where Soviet authorities suppressed and persecuted various forms of Christianity to different extents depending on State interests.[1] Soviet Marxist-Leninism policy consistently advocated the control, suppression, and ultimately, the elimination of religious beliefs, and actively encouraged atheism in the Soviet Union.[2] Most religions were never outlawed.[1] The state advocated the destruction of religion, and it officially pronounced religious beliefs to be superstitious and backward.[3][4] The Communist Party destroyed churches, mosques and temples, ridiculed, harassed, incarcerated and executed religious leaders, flooded the schools and media with anti-religious teachings, and it introduced a belief system called "scientific atheism," with its own rituals, promises and proselytizers.[5][6] In 1925 the government founded the League of Militant Atheists to intensify the persecution.[7] The total number of Christian victims under the Soviet regime has been estimated to range between 12-20 million.[8][9][10]

Originally Posted by enorbet @ BW-userx and re: Lies - Okay for the sake of argument we can dismiss the aspect of lying that is "willfull deceit" and only deal with untruth. Please, Sir, pick any one of my purported "lies" and prove it an untruth. By all means, take your time and do your homework. It's all here for all to see and quote. Give the forum some actual evidence not just your preachy opinions for a change....or don't and keep building the case that you are acting like a delusional, implacable, sanctimonious elitist. Your choice.

go back and re read everything I stated. then provide (BOTH SIDES OF THE ARGUMENT BTW) it to me as proof of a lie on my part. the burden of proof is on you now. I've already stated what I stated.

the ball is in your court now. fumble or rebuttal?
the choice is yours.

Originally Posted by enorbet @ BW-userx and re: Lies - Okay for the sake of argument we can dismiss the aspect of lying that is "willfull deceit" and only deal with untruth. Please, Sir, pick any one of my purported "lies" and prove it an untruth. By all means, take your time and do your homework. It's all here for all to see and quote. Give the forum some actual evidence not just your preachy opinions for a change....or don't and keep building the case that you are acting like a delusional, implacable, sanctimonious elitist. Your choice.

JUST like I defined on that one post of mine to you that I do believe you never dealt with it properly?