*smiles*
Even if i did bash out at my linux setup, i'd be laughed at.
I'm running Debian unstable. So when it crashes i got no one else but myself to blame.
I just don't like that i have to pay Microsoft to be a beta-tester of their software.
My wish from Microsoft is stability like in 98SE and support for NTFS (native) then i'd be happy to chuck out XP and free up some space for more mp3's.

Let's just say it like this. Windows is my ex-girlfriend, Linux is my new girlfriend. I love them both in a way.

I really liked this . But in fact, It's my wife who thinks Linux is my new girlfriend and that I spend to much time with it .

@everybody

I think it's OK to make some jokes about Windows or Linux. Let's face it, if you are here, trying out Linux, you have at least one reason for it, or you are not 100% satisfied with Windows or the way M$ drives the marketing or whatever, you are not totally happy with Windows. Bashing would be more like www.download.com comments, where kids make only this sort of comments "This program sucks!". . As long as you clarify your point of view you can say anything you wish. That will be called debate, not bashing. M$ does it at Linux over and over again. Haven't you ever heard they saying that "Linux is a cancer for the OS's". So it's ok to do the same... but differently from them, we justify why.

I've switched to Linux myself for one good reason:" - It's a great platform for programing". I enjoy creating games(actually, learning how to) and every little piece of software I needed I've found for Linux and the best, it's all portable to other systems as well. Blender3D for modeling and Gimp for texturing is a great combo. For programing, I could use SDL (portable), OpenGL (portable) or even Python (portable) and why not a combo of Python with SDL (pygame and portable) or even python and opengl (pyopengl and portable).

Blender3D is less then 2megas download, free. The rest is pratically shipped with all distros or I could simply apt-get for it. No matter how much you like windows, you cannot deny the fact that Linux is way more prepared for Internet (apt-get and emerge based distros are light years ahead of Windows, which came with nothing but a text editor and the annoying MSN hooked up to the system XP). What is the easiest way to install gaim in Windows? Search google for gaim, download gaim. Then you have to download gtk too, "double-click"(laughs) install gtk, "double-click"(more laughs) at gaim. Most likely reboot after all those "updates" and then start gaim. In linux, apt-get install gaim or emerge gaim. Done. To sum up, just think about the expenses of making a hobby game in Windows. Image Handling = Photoshop, Programing = DirectX and Visual Studio, Homepage to show your game= Dreamweaver, 3D Modeler= so many, one more expensive then another.

I know what you could say, you could get all programs made for Linux to run under Windows. Sure I could... most of those programs as Gimp, Gaim, Gkrellm uses gtk. If you can make Gkrellm and Gaim working together under Windows you get a free copy of my game when out (if ever)...

And don't forget that Linux is better then Windows for gaming as well. It's just an unexplored territory for the developers, most likely assuming that peoples don't use Linux to play games. Just compare the way the games runs. When a game in Windows starts, the screen flicks (and may crash) black, then you see the resolution of your desktop change to a safe DirectXInitMode() to 640x480, then the game starts. This process takes a long time, devouring your video and virtual memory. This does not happens in Linux because the video memory access is made directly. There're plenty of games made for Linux as well, as UT2003, Neverwinter Nights and Quake3. I know nobody who actually bought a Linux game (I did, Quake3, SOF, SimCity and others...), but peoples prefer to stick with the native Windows games or trying to get the awful Half-Life running in Linux instead of try native mods as Urban Terror (Quake3) or Unreal T.(Tactops), believing that Windows is better for games. If you don't buy a Linux game ever, the developer will continue thinking that noone uses/wants to play on Linux and won't botter. If you think like this, Linux being "bad" for gaming is mostly our fault.

Don't tell me either that Windows is more compatible then Linux, I've plenty of games (directx based games) for Win98 (Blair Witch, Heavy Metal FAKK2) which won't run under WinXP. I've spoken with the developers and they won't give support because the game is not made to use under NT systems. Now sit and think, it's windows and it's DirectX based and won't run. Great (back) compatibility huh? A game/software becomes useless after 2 years (win98 - 2000) and you say Windows has better compatibility?. I laugh at it.
One last thought, there are cracks and hacks to make most of my games to run under WinXP. They are about 500k size and you can find at www.astalavista.com, now tell me, we support a lot developers who makes games for Windows, but do they support us? How hard is to make an official patch of half a mega to make those games work and us happy. They (windows, M$ and it's developers) don't give a dime for us, tell just want the money and that's all. Not even a descent text editor (textpad 4.0) is free in Windows... So please, don't tell that Windows is the future of Internet or more compatible or even more suitable for gaming or general development.... If you truly believe at it, surprise "You've been brain washed...

Originally posted by Fusioncases
"Who's posts fatgod?"
Tacobill's posts. He has decended into trolling. I think he was sincere to begin with, but after his suggestions that it is linux's fault he cant make it go, were refuted, he got upset, and started trolling.

"....flipside I have run into many problems with Linux does that make it O.K. for me to senselessly bash it to h*ll?"
Not on this board, no. But feel free to ask questions If you want to linux bash then checkout www.linuxsucks.com it'll make you feel better, especially what bill it doing to Tux

"I don't see windows as do it bills way or the highway."
Perhaps you dont, but it is. It doesnt work properly if not setup in 'Bills way', this is attributed to every facet of the OS especially windows networking. MS has next to no fault tolerance.

"If I don't like something in xp I disable it or do registry hacks..."
Yes, but there are buttons for disabling stuff. MS put them there. And the registy is only half decipherable. Half is in english, and the other half is codes that link to other codes and is generally a huge mess that is impossible to control. Even windows cant control the registy. Why do you think there is a user definable size limit? When you "uninstall" an app, it says that it's removing reg entries, but it is lying to you. Go and uninstall office. Have fun getting it out of the registry. The only way to ditch it properly is to go and download a tool from MS called eraser97 or eraser2k. Oh yeah, the registry was a marvel of computing science.

"This is what intrigues me about Linux... To be honest I worry about the next release of windows, all these things people are claiming that will be in it to prevent you from doing anything could in fact be a deciding time for me to jump ship to another os for good."
Say hello to Longhorn.
http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/longhorn_aero.asp
It looks pretty, but it really is an OS for idiots. Even Mac OSX is trying to give the user more control over the system. MS is just taking it away. haha, have fun in your MS world.

"The only respect I have for windows is gaming"
Why? windows sucks at gaming. Linux is much faster for games. I used to run UT2003 on both win2k and Linux, 1024x768 highish detail Win2k and 1600x1200 full details Linux. But if you mean that more games work under windows, then I'd point the finger at developers, not the wonders of Windows.

"...and compatibility"
Flawed logic dude. MS dont write drivers. Vendors do, and they write MS drivers because stats say that 90% of PC's run it. Which has to be BS. 90% of PC's have a licence to run windows, but some dont run it.

And I abuse vendors that don't write linux drivers every chance I get. Just to let them know I'm here and a linux user

"Does that make either OS inferior? no!"
Quite right to say, but MS-Windows _is_ an inferior OS. Am I windows bashing? well, yes. I've been doing pretty much since I started using it. And so do 90% of people that use it. Ever hear someone in an office scream "you stupid computer!!!"? They mean Windows.

"Laptops?"
Same story, some are cool for linux straight off, others are not so cool.

Thanks Megaman X

The reason that i do my share of windows bashing is aslo due to the fact that i'm going to schol to learn IT-Supprt and Mainenance of Networks. Where we are supposed to learn about Operativesystems. When you get told that at the start and you discover that the nly operativesystem that's included in the class is Windows 2000, you get a bit frustrated. Of 6 teachers that does the classes, there is one that have tried Linux. RedHat 5,0
And all they go around blbbing about is how great windows is, how bad Linux is and so on.
And i know that sometimes i'm still angry with my teachers long after we've had one of our debates.
Widws is and will always be good for something. Just like the police.


Fatgod : That is part of Microsoft's strategy to make it more normal for us to talk to the pc. Voice rekognition it's called. First part is making us not feel stupid for talking to the pc. And i think they've managed that really well.

Anyway. Have a good weekend all of you and hapy bashing or shelling
*uses bash*

I feel sorry for you man

I'm studying Computer Science now, and in the second year we had these kind of classes too, but instead of Windows, they took Unix. (that teacher clearly was a unix-guru *)

They'd chosen unix because it's a (technically)well documented, open system, every one knows the internals, and built with a kind of elegance and simplicity you don't find that often in software. The size of the unix kernel is huge, but it's exactly the size _one_ man can cope with.


unix classes
The teacher didn't bash Microsoft explicitly, but he did show the techniques behind memory management, file systems, basic I/O, and process scheduling. For every subject, he presented several techniques you can use to solve the problem. Sometimes compared it with Ms-DOS and Microsoft Windows.

On some occasions (like the memory management and process scheduling), we asked; if this technique is so damn easy to understand/code, and creates a stable/secure system.... why doesn't Microsoft use these things??? The teacher couldn't answer the question. He didn't understand it either.

(sidenote: the TCP/IP stack from windows 2000/XP has been _taken_ from FreeBSD. they never wrote a correct stack themselves)


err.. w t f?
For the first time, I wondered... is unix that bad at all? Guess what: it opened my eyes a little further on a unix way of computing. Compare fat32 against the unix-v7 fs, and windows memory management against the simple effective/stable techniques unix already used 20 years ago.... ...then I couldn't understand anymore why windows 95 ever had those memory problems and hanging processes / lockups. Windows has been improved a lot, but it has never been rewritten from scratch!


* at the start of the first school year, we received your windows and unix logs. That same teacher told us... You all know windows, and that's why we want to show you something different too. He told one other thing: that funny thing about unix was, that everyone could use those machines, but one of the users could hurt one other or the system. ..and we were kindly asked to keep those machines on, because people were using those machines remotely at the same time you're sitting behind the keyboard.


my conclusion: windows never was ready from prime-time... but they didn't have any competitors... Contracted OEM partners, hardware suppliers wrote drivers, etc.. And unix..? It was commercialized, expensive, and they ignored the i386 platform competely, because they didn't like the design (and flaws) of that chip! Microsoft also did other good things. much lower prices, and creating a PC-market for people like us.

hay ... i use slackware linux and is fairly new to it ... and i have a huge prob with my nvidia onboard graphics card ... but i didn't give up ... !!!!! it makes me feel really sad when people give up as fast as they do ... i have been working windows and tolerating it for many long years until i discovered the thruth ... there is something better out there ... LINUX !!!! it really sets u free ... it took me a whole month to figure out exactly how to do whot ... i started on suse 7.2 then moved to suse 8 and then tried mandrake 9 and then discovered slackware 9 ... and oh boy was i happy ... anyhow i still strugle ... and i still have lots of questions ... but i know one thing ... anything is worth not working on windows ... !!!!!

My first Linux install was Red Hat 8.0. I ended up spending more prep time for that install than I had to. It basically recognized all of my hardware. The only thing it messed up on was the mouse. (You guessed it, it's an MS mouse.)

Now I've got RH 8.1 and XP home on the same hard drive, and they get along pretty well. Well, okay XP continues to ignore the existence of Red Hat, and Red Hat tries not to make fun of XP too much. That's nice of it, I thought.

“ "I don't see windows as do it bills way or the highway."
Perhaps you dont, but it is. It doesnt work properly if not setup in 'Bills way', this is attributed to every facet of the OS especially windows networking. MS has next to no fault tolerance.”

Either I’m not conveying something here or your not listening. If I don’t like something in XP I turn it off or if possible get rid of it. I don’t even mess with networking so it doesn’t even apply in my situation.


” "If I don't like something in xp I disable it or do registry hacks..."
Yes, but there are buttons for disabling stuff. MS put them there. And the registy is only half decipherable. Half is in english, and the other half is codes that link to other codes and is generally a huge mess that is impossible to control. Even windows cant control the registy. Why do you think there is a user definable size limit? When you "uninstall" an app, it says that it's removing reg entries, but it is lying to you. Go and uninstall office. Have fun getting it out of the registry. The only way to ditch it properly is to go and download a tool from MS called eraser97 or eraser2k. Oh yeah, the registry was a marvel of computing science.”

Being half decipherable is your opinion. And no Microsoft hasn’t put “buttons” for disabling things on Everything. Which can majorly suck, but there are ways to do it.


”It looks pretty, but it really is an OS for idiots.”

You know smart people can use windows…. Your IQ isn’t based on the OS you use. Most people will care less what’s branded on the box just as long as it gets the job done. I don’t judge you on the car you drive or the clothes you wear.

” "The only respect I have for windows is gaming"
Why? windows sucks at gaming. Linux is much faster for games. I used to run UT2003 on both win2k and Linux, 1024x768 highish detail Win2k and 1600x1200 full details Linux. But if you mean that more games work under windows, then I'd point the finger at developers, not the wonders of Windows.”

I could care less who you think is to blame. I even pointed out about drivers and whatnot that windows isn’t the one to be praised for this. You obviously didn’t see that. The point is this, more games are on Windows and until that is changed Windows will always be on some part of my HD. And that was just a statement it wasn’t like I was putting a ultimatum down that I will never use Linux because it doesn’t have any games. Or Linux sucks period because I can’t play my games on it. But you seem to be taking it that way.

”"...and compatibility"
Flawed logic dude. MS dont write drivers. Vendors do, and they write MS drivers because stats say that 90% of PC's run it. Which has to be BS. 90% of PC's have a licence to run windows, but some dont run it.”

No I would have to say flawed interpretation on your part. I never said MS wrote drivers. I said that every piece of hardware I have ever bought recently comes with drivers For XP. And yes they do write drivers specifically for Windows because 90% (your number not mine) of pc’s have a license to run windows. And your disputing the 90% who the freak cares. So what if a few of those aren’t running windows anymore, even if its 80% or 70% they will still continue to write drivers for Windows. And heck to add to it even more I said windows should not be praised for this I bet vendors have a heck of a time even getting their hardware to work with xp. I even repeated this twice I have no idea how you missed it.

I have tried to be completely fair about this and you IMO and maybe even ONLY my opinion are just looking for trouble. I was honest with all my statements and gave +’s and –‘s for both OS’s FOR ME ALONE. I don’t use networking so I won’t even get into which is better for what but by my observations Linux comes with a crap load of that stuff and Windows doesn’t. Linux is a very powerful OS from what I have seen and I’ve only used it for maybe 3 days (if you compiled every hour). I in no way bashed Linux, I complimented it if anything. But you had to turn it around and explain why Windows is inferior. Maybe Windows is inferior to you, that’s just great you found something you like (Linux) but that doesn’t mean we all have to agree with you, and that doesn’t make people who don’t agree with you idiots or mindless drones. Again lets bring up the gaming issue, regardless of who you can point fingers at and blame for the faults of this, if windows has more games and I love games to the point I play them whenever I have free time does that make me a Microsoft idiot because I have windows on my machine? It’s not like I wrote out a Linux sucks Windows rules post so I have no idea why our taking it like that.

And after saying all that I CLEARLY wrote; “Does that make either OS inferior? Nay!” To make sure without a doubt no one was going to take my post as a insult or twist it around to make it sound like I was just trolling. I honestly think Linux is quite the OS and don’t take it as a joke.

But I have to give respect to the point where I spend 2,000$ on a computer put the pieces together install xp on it in 30 minutes shove the motherboard, sound card, video, and any extra pci cards’ driver cd’s in and reboot a Couple of times and ship it out the door. And I think your completely missing the point on this one by a long shot. It’s not like I hug my xp cd and kiss it goodnight its just that being able to do that is extremely stress relieving and satisfying to have everything work the way it should, without any hassle. READ BELOW BEFORE YOU EVEN THINK.

Now before you get worked up into a fit about me supposedly “praising” windows for this I have something to say. Being a newbie with Linux I know I could not purchase every part I want from online and fully assemble a computer and have Linux see every device and function properly like I could with XP. Doing this on older pc’s is most likely a different story since I’m sure the Linux community takes great care in making sure your old amd k6 will run like greased lightning or any other system for that matter. XP isn’t the one to be praised you say, well gee wiz I do recall saying the same thing 2 freakin times before. But again I really don’t care, all I care about is the outcome.

After posting my last post I started thinking. Once I become proficient enough at Linux I could start to offer cheap low end computers for college students just looking for a word processor/email/browsing. I mean taking off 100$ (cost of Windows) of a computers price tag is huge especially if you’re already at 500$. And I can already see it coming, no this wasn’t a insult, yes I know Linux is powerful enough to do much more than being stuck as a word processor, but lets start with the basics first here people let me see what it is like at the top of the hill. So you can see I have already thought of plans for Linux taking over some of the sales.

I am new to the list and I feel his pain but.....When I loaded XP everything was fine but my DSL speeds were slooooowww. I had to tweak the registry to allow for larger packet sizes and a few other things. After doing that the speed was great. OK...I then loaded RH 9..I didn't have to do a thing. DSL speed was faster than on XP. The one thing I tell anyone who want to learn about Linux is...buy, borrow,get an older computer. Get Knoppix and run it. If it runs then get the latest verson of the top Linux distro's and see which one loads the best. They you can play. The problem with linux is that if you have a new system then you will have a harder time loading it. Microsoft has an army working on drivers along with the company that makes the product. Linux is just now getting attention. Just remember..I have RH9 fullly loaded and I didn't pay a dime for it. Most people can't say that about XP ...Oh...they buy office!

wow, 25 minutes of my life i'll never get back! I think I am actually a few IQ points dumber just from reading this. No offense guys and gals, but who gives a friggin shit! Use what you want, let others do what they want, and support those who need it. Simple.

I have a huge amount of respect for all of those who have helped me in the past, and for all those who will undoubtedly help me in the future, but this is ridiculous. If you don't know why: Stand up, walk away from your computer (be it , "nix, M$, OSX, BSD, Commodore, Palm, or web tv for christ sake), assume the universal choking sign, take a deep breath and squeeze tight.

ezra143 - Well said.

all i can say is "LMFAO" yes im laffin my fuggin ass off. I dunno how people have so many problems. I mean, im a noob but i've managed to install and configure everything i need in about 2 or 3 hours. Even extra's like gkrellm.

"Either I’m not conveying something here or your not listening. If I don’t like something in XP I turn it off or if possible get rid of it. I don’t even mess with networking so it doesn’t even apply in my situation."

I read you loud and clear. The things that you can turn off are allowed to you by MS. That is the only point I'm trying to make. "Bills will" was the source of this line if you recall.

Can you get rid of or turn off explorer? Can you dual boot to any other OS from the Windows boot manager? can you install XP without having it overwrite the MBR? Can you install office 97 after you've already installed office 2k?

I'm not saying that any OS is perfect nor perfectly imperfect (if you follow) but point out another OS that wont let you install two seperate application versions. Or do everything it legally can to disallow you from dual booting. Please refer to "Bills will"


”Being half decipherable is your opinion."

Oh come on. What about all the encrypted crap? like keys that have random letters and numbers with entries are are more numbers and letters? these are actually used by windows to do stuff. Cant tell you exactly what, but there are hundreds, maybe thousands of these entries for office alone. Simply put there are countless registry entriesthat no human is ever going to be able to tell you what they are for.


"And no Microsoft hasn’t put “buttons” for disabling things on Everything. Which can majorly suck, but there are ways to do it."

You said that you can turn on and off what you want. I agree with you but only up to a point. That point being where the registry becomes completely cryptic and features are undocumented and unrefered to, and the stuff that is not human readable. Do you know the menu speed option? Can it be set without tweak UI unless you already know what to put where? How much more stuff is hidden? does XP support OS2's HPFS? NT4 did, but you had to know that the dll you needed was called "pinball.dll". They actually removed features from Windows. "Bills will" strikes again.


"”It looks pretty, but it really is an OS for idiots.” (Longhorn)
"You know smart people can use windows…. Your IQ isn’t based on the OS you use. Most people will care less what’s branded on the box just as long as it gets the job done. I don’t judge you on the car you drive or the clothes you wear."

Sorry, I didn't mean to insult anyone for wanting to use it. I meant that it is trying to be as "easy" as possible, which is great if you dont want to do too much "interesting" stuff on the box, if you do then it will be dificult. When I say interesting, I mean anything that does not have an option displayed.

And your right! IQ has nothing to do with any of this at all. Both windows and Linux can be used by people who have no computing experience, so can OS/2, and MacOS / OSX

I do get upset though when it is suggested that Windows is a great OS. I think that most people that prefer to use it and make statements like that have no idea what makes a good OS.


""...windows sucks at gaming. Linux is much faster for games...then I'd point the finger at developers, not the wonders of Windows.”

"I could care less who you think is to blame. I even pointed out about drivers and whatnot that windows isn’t the one to be praised for this. You obviously didn’t see that. The point is this, more games are on Windows and until that is changed Windows will always be on some part of my HD. And that was just a statement it wasn’t like I was putting a ultimatum down that I will never use Linux because it doesn’t have any games. Or Linux sucks period because I can’t play my games on it. But you seem to be taking it that way."

Gotcha. Yeah sorry, I did miss the drivers thing you are quite right. Still, Linux is a better platform for games. Fortunately there is a trend to developing to get linux binaries with games, but as you say, that is beside the point.


""No I would have to say flawed interpretation on your part."

Yep, my fault again


""I have tried to be completely fair about this and you IMO and maybe even ONLY my opinion are just looking for trouble."

Nope, I am stating my opinion too. I don't mean to come across "Holier than thou" but I do have a stong dislike for MS as a software house, and their primary earners Windows and office. My dislike is justified I think.


"I was honest with all my statements and gave +’s and –‘s for both OS’s FOR ME ALONE."

Same here. It's just that I see no benefit of using MS software over any other OS as all. Quite the reverse. in every instance, unless you are _forced_ into using windows.


"I don’t use networking so I won’t even get into which is better for what but by my observations Linux comes with a crap load of that stuff and Windows doesn’t."

OK, nevermind, it was just an example. But did you know that MS networking slows down computer networks? Including the internet?


" Linux is a very powerful OS from what I have seen and I’ve only used it for maybe 3 days (if you compiled every hour). I in no way bashed Linux, I complimented it if anything. But you had to turn it around and explain why Windows is inferior. Maybe Windows is inferior to you, that’s just great you found something you like (Linux) but that doesn’t mean we all have to agree with you, and that doesn’t make people who don’t agree with you idiots or mindless drones. Again lets bring up the gaming issue, regardless of who you can point fingers at and blame for the faults of this, if windows has more games and I love games to the point I play them whenever I have free time does that make me a Microsoft idiot because I have windows on my machine? It’s not like I wrote out a Linux sucks Windows rules post so I have no idea why our taking it like that."

I know you didn't say that linux sucks, though my lanuage came close to saying that, so sorry for the incorrect impression there. I just though that linux-sucks dot com deserved mentioning. It is a rather good site I feel

Now, let me be absolutly clear on this. MS-Windows is an inferior OS. Anyone that thinks otherwise does not have proper experience with any other OS. I don't give a monkey's if you agree with that or not, like a really annoying manic street preacher I think you'll see the light in the end. Sorry about that, but there you go. It is my opinion and I am completely bigoted on that point.


"And after saying all that I CLEARLY wrote; “Does that make either OS inferior? Nay!” To make sure without a doubt no one was going to take my post as a insult or twist it around to make it sound like I was just trolling. I honestly think Linux is quite the OS and don’t take it as a joke. "
No, I did not take your comment as a swipe at me or linux or anything, it was what it was, I merely took the moment to point out my bigoted opinion And I know that your not trolling.


"But I have to give respect.. XP isn’t the one to be praised you say, well gee wiz I do recall saying the same thing 2 freakin times before. But again I really don’t care, all I care about is the outcome." (drivers)

As you said that vendors ship drivers before, then we are in agreement.

I care about the computer industry and it's driving forces, driver development is one of those forces, but if I say any more about that, you will likely construe that I am in disagreement with you. Anyway, we agree that MS have nothing to do with driver dev.


"After posting my last post I started thinking."
That's a good time to start (!!_Just Kidding_!! couldn't resist)


" Once I become proficient enough at Linux..."
Go for it.


I dont get stuck into Windows just for the fun of it. I have suffered at the hands of MS, and yes, I have found another OS that I actually like. DOS 5 is one, OS/2 being a favorite, and now Linux and OSX.

there have also been many points in which i wanted to give up also and go back to windoze. especially with the ongoing sound issues i have been having. but what do i do instead of going back to windoze? i run my system without sound until i can figure out the problem. i have been through my share of startup problems. i used to post on this board as 'kalif' but had a change of nicknames since. the only one of those problems i have yet to manage is the sound issue, and trust me, i play games quite a bit... i hate it. but, after so many issues i have had besides, it seems rather trivial. linux isn't the right os for everyone. i personally believe only the true computer freaks will be able to enjoy it. i love messing around with my computer when something is wrong. either you want to make your computer work for you or you want someone else to make your computer work for you is i guess the point i am striving for. you decide.