Because Shiny Things Are Fun - The New New Windows v Linux Thread

Originally Posted by SigTerm OpenSource philosophy + black and white thinking (us vs them). Certain people treat it as if it a religion, which essentually makes them unreasonable and blind/deaf to weak parts of linux. Remove the lunatics, and the decent discussion will be possible. Plus it is not uncommon for a newbie to get "high" for a first month or two when he just discovered iptables but hadn't hit first serious linux-specific problem yet.

not to mention some bordering on bizarre cultish behavior

however, it is war with micro for me, but not the user who should be welcome with open arms

treating them like cr#p only hurts a distro, if that is even an interest,

personally i'm not interested in being treated like cr*p anywhere, no reason for it, 'cept perhaps for the weak,

not to mention it is usually easy enuff to just go somewhere else

not point in turning off newbs from the get go witch as far as i'm concerned is of prime importance

matter of fact i'll find the quote from the man that describes how it ought to be

basically, ~ i can't be bothered messing with an OS

here
http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?is...090202#feature

Do you use the same distribution for your work machines as well as play machines? LT: Since I only really "use" a very limited set of programs, my choice of distribution is pretty arbitrary. My main requirement is that it's fairly easy to install and keep up-to-date, just so that I can mostly ignore it.

maaan try to tell some of the linux crowd "show me the goods and it better work"

and you might as well be dogdoo, that i could easily link to but can't be bothered

folks have to figure stuff out for themselves, and the path must be made as painless as possible, particularly for the noobs in my books, if you are serious about that type credibility, and that is your goal

no doubt about it, to many in linux, it is irrelevant and then they go on and on about how superior their goods are but then can barely even give it away to the average user

you get what you ask for,
facts, numbers and money talk, babble mostly walks

for your amusement and if even interested, the puppy people are trying to figure out "Where is the missing topic" in the "truly off topic area" of course

for real entertainment, find what the main man has to say, witch is usually not much, as well as rare and mostly comical

easy enuff with a quick search tho and heh, some folks thrive on it, to each his own

Originally Posted by SigTerm Hey, if you're still using FAT on Windows machine, it is definitely your fault. The filesystem is outdated, does not support journaling, does not support unicode, plus there are filesize limitations. You should switch to NTFS before making any comparisons.

Just for the record: It isn't even strictly my 'fault' that I'm running Windows in the first place. It came already loaded on the used computer that I bought.

The two comments I made above are separate for a reason. The reply I made to the charge of bias was in defense of Linux and of fair terms of discussion. The next comment (the reason I came to this thread to start with) was not intended to offend Windows fans, but is a performance question I have often asked myself. This thread seemed an appropriate place to express my question in public.

Originally Posted by Sumguy I wouldn't exactly call it "biased" when one's opinion is formulated by the experience of having used both OS's, and the realization that one performs much better than the other. There's nothing "biased" about that. On the contrary, someone who is biased will choose/promote the OS that performs poorly while denigrating the free alternative which works better. To have a choice between two products and to choose the one you find superior, is hardly being "biased". What would such a bias be based on?

Oh I agree if it is your opinion. What about the below?

Originally Posted by Sumguy And actually, the way I understand it, I believe that many Windows programmers/developers prefer to work on Linux/Unix, even if their end product is destined for Windows. (Could be wrong about that- as it is not my field of expertise- but it seems I've heard that in several places over the years- even before I used Linux)

This is what I would call BS. Seriously did you say that? That is not your opinion.

Originally Posted by Sumguy By contrast, I've had Ubuntu on here for over a year now- and it has required no maintenance; given me no problems; It didn't take hours to install or learn how to use- It installed in under half an hour from the live CD I burned...and I was able to use it immediately- no hours of learning required- if one is not totally retarded and can use Windows....you can use Linux- out of the box.

So you've never installed a security update or patch on Linux? No maintenance whatsoever? Either you've lost the power cord to your PC or you're fibbing. . Everything requires maintenance, whether it is done by the OS or by the user directly.

You do realize windows and Linux both use a gui, mouse and keyboard? Each are very well designed and easy to use. Can't say either OS would take "hours" to learn. Last time I checked W7 took around 20 mins to install.

I'm all for a good argument against (whether personal or technical). Your post is probably the biggest load of tosh I've ever had the pleasure of reading. I don't usually get involved in these threads but just had to. Apologies if I have offended.

My background, just as an FYI. I've used Windows, UNIX and Linux both at home and work for 8 years and would most definitely say I'm not partial to any OS. Windows has it flaws, Linux has its flaws. Nothing is perfect here. .

Originally Posted by dogpatch Just for the record: It isn't even strictly my 'fault' that I'm running Windows in the first place. It came already loaded on the used computer that I bought.

It most definitely isn't your fault. A massive amount of time, money, brain power, bribery, corruption and extortion over a period of decades made damn sure that not only was Microsoft windows the only possible operating system that a PC manufacturer could sell you, but that you would also be unaware that you even had a choice.

The flakey nature of the product is only part of my objection to windows, its the fact that it got stuffed down our throats by illegal means.

We now have a choice, and I exercise mine. But then I've always been contrary.

Originally Posted by dogpatch My computer does not have a flashing led to indicate hard disk activity, but when i boot to Windows, i can immediately hear the disk heads as they rattle back and forth accessing data from the FAT filesystem. When i boot to Linux and its ext3 filesystem, the heads are silent. My question is this: Has a statistical study ever been done showing a correlation between filesystem usage and hard disk longevity?

By FAT do you mean NTFS? If not then FAT will be less efficient by a significant margin.

I would hazard a guess that any studies penetrating to hard disk usage would be performed at a lower level than the disk partitions and file system types. More like the I/O. If NTFS uses more I/O then you could argue that it could degrade a drive quicker. After all, it is using the drive more.

Originally Posted by Zetec So you've never installed a security update or patch on Linux? No maintenance whatsoever? Either you've lost the power cord to your PC or you're fibbing. . Everything requires maintenance, whether it is done by the OS or by the user directly.

hey, puppyland doesn't believe in that nonsense and there are ~ 30k members in the main forums, and is all over the world in many languages

it is also one of the best at dealing with cheap computers that is the best others may have in the bigger world

u usually end up fixing or figuring stuff out though, or doing what you can about it in my experience,

always best when that is not a huge issue so you aren't left with getting answers from who knows what kinda linux forum, that is often hostile and a turn off

my position is the supporting forum is vital to any distro

absolutely the easiest thing i've run across to get started with though, plus you don't have to touch your beloved win so a great approach for the win crowd

takes a few minutes to setup and a piece of cake to back up, who could ask for more to start with

unfortunately, it mostly goes downhill from there

so even if you get folks started quick, most prob move on quick

i found pclos quite intuitive

make anything hard for the win noob and you've got big probs

Originally Posted by Zetec Oh I agree if it is your opinion. What about the below? Originally Posted by Sumguy And actually, the way I understand it, I believe that many Windows programmers/developers prefer to work on Linux/Unix, even if their end product is destined for Windows. (Could be wrong about that- as it is not my field of expertise- but it seems I've heard that in several places over the years- even before I used Linux) This is what I would call BS. Seriously did you say that? That is not your opinion.

What's the problem? I was just quoting what I believe MAY BE true, to counter something my opponent said. And that is my understanding...be it right or wrong. Even if it is true, that is not what makes Linux better than Winders. What makes it better is the fact that it works for me, and makes my life easier and allows me more options. IF I was wrong in what I stated in the above quote, it still does not invalidate my argument.

If I thought Windows were superior, I'd use it. Windows came on my computer- so it really didn't cost me anything extra- and yet I choose to wipe it from my hard drive. Talk about not being able to give something away for free!

Originally Posted by Zetec So you've never installed a security update or patch on Linux? No maintenance whatsoever? Either you've lost the power cord to your PC or you're fibbing. Everything requires maintenance, whether it is done by the OS or by the user directly.

Well I;d hardly consider ONE update in a year's time "regular maintenance".(And only did that because my distro was quite out of date when I installed it). THAT in fact, is one of things I love about Linux. I'm not fond of constant updates, and even when I used Winders, I'd pretty much only update when absolutely necessary- like when getting a new piece of hardware or when something stopped working.

So that's the extent of my Linux "maintenance"- one update in over a year....vs. the constant fixing of problems; defragging; scanning for viruses; trying to figure out why the computer is getting slower and slower...re-installing drivers....fixing corrupted files and registry keys, etc. etc. ad infinitum, that is par for the course with Windows. A couple of minutes a year for Linux....vs. many hours a year maintaining Windows. Now who's being ridiculous?

Originally Posted by Zetec You do realize windows and Linux both use a gui, mouse and keyboard? Each are very well designed and easy to use. Can't say either OS would take "hours" to learn.

Agreed! My point was merely to combat Sigterm's feces...err...thesis that Linux somehow requires "hours" of re-education just to learn how to do the basic things. So you might want to take that up with him. I think we can agree that any person of normal intelligence can sit down at any computer with a GUI and perform the basic tasks.

Originally Posted by Zetec Last time I checked W7 took around 20 mins to install.

I've never even laid eyes on W7- but based on Windows past fiascos, I find that rather hard to believe. And even if it is so, whi cares? I could probably install DOS on my computer in about 14 nanoseconds...but why would I want to?

Originally Posted by Zetec I'm all for a good argument against (whether personal or technical). Your post is probably the biggest load of tosh I've ever had the pleasure of reading. I don't usually get involved in these threads but just had to. Apologies if I have offended.

LOL... absolutely no offense taken- it's all in fun, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion...I just have trouble understanding what you find so incredible about mine!

This is definitely a fun thread, and I am enjoying it much. It wouldn't be half as much fun if we all agreed.

Originally Posted by Zetec My background, just as an FYI. I've used Windows, UNIX and Linux both at home and work for 8 years and would most definitely say I'm not partial to any OS. Windows has it flaws, Linux has its flaws. Nothing is perfect here. .

We can definitely agree that no OS is perfect- it's all about what works best, most efficiently and comfortably for you. From my own personal experience and from dealing with others, I just have trouble believing that Windows works best for the majority...(or that it works...period! )

You do trump me as far as experience...mine is more like: 40 year-old Texas Instruments calculator....WIN98...Vista....Linux.

....but I do have an IQ of 162, damn it! -so there!

Originally Posted by SigTerm Hey, if you're still using FAT on Windows machine, it is definitely your fault. The filesystem is outdated, does not support journaling, does not support unicode, plus there are filesize limitations. You should switch to NTFS before making any comparisons.

Originally Posted by Zetec By FAT do you mean NTFS? If not then FAT will be less efficient by a significant margin.

You guys are right; I stand corrected, (and embarrassed) . My Windows is running on a type '7' (HPFS/NTFS) filesystem, not FAT. In any case, those disk heads rattle back and forth alot, as opposed to when accessing the ext3 filesystem.

Originally Posted by Sumguy We can definitely agree that no OS is perfect- it's all about what works best, most efficiently and comfortably for you. From my own personal experience and from dealing with others, I just have trouble believing that Windows works best for the majority...(or that it works...period! )

then you live in a cave - kidding

Originally Posted by Sumguy If I thought Windows were superior, I'd use it. Windows came on my computer- so it really didn't cost me anything extra- and yet I choose to wipe it from my hard drive. Talk about not being able to give something away for free!

superior is subjective and number of users mostly tells the tale

superior to a small potatoes crowd means peanuts to the big boys, or movers and shakers

Originally Posted by SigTerm OpenSource philosophy + black and white thinking (us vs them). Certain people treat it as if it a religion, which essentually makes them unreasonable and blind/deaf to weak parts of linux. Remove the lunatics, and the decent discussion will be possible. Plus it is not uncommon for a newbie to get "high" for a first month or two when he just discovered iptables but hadn't hit first serious linux-specific problem yet.

Well, t'is true that I am a contrarian by nature....but as far as FOSS philosophy: Although it's nice that such ideals allow free alternatives to exist; and it does no harm, seeing that it is voluntary....I wouldn't really say that I am into such a philosophy- as I believe that people should be paid for their endeavors, and that there is nothing wrong with making a profit. (By contrast, too many these days seem to think that, for some reason, profiting from legit endeavors and work are wrong....yet mooching from the wealth created by other people's work/endeavors is perfectly O-K....talk about bass ackwards!)

Originally Posted by SigTerm Linus had a few things to say about black-and-white thinking and "free software extremists", by the way.

But I'm not an extremist...just some guy who wasn't happy with Winders; who subsequently discovered Linux, and now sings it's praises. Although, I will admit that even if MS did manage to create a good OS, I would avoid it as long as Linux continued to work good, just to avoid supporting the rather shady things MS does, and their penchant for wanting to control us and our 'puters. But that would not stop me from admitting that such an OS (if ever created) was good/worked well, etc.

Originally Posted by SigTerm "Works" - yes. "Works Well" - that doesn't always happen, depends on your task. Same applies to all operating systems.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by SigTerm That's a strawman. Your computer is your property, so you can as well cut it in half with a chainsaw if you want, I don't give a damn. If you want decent discussion, however, then you shouldn't invent ridiculous arguments (about bash exploding computer) out of the blue, because doing so makes you no different from average fanboy, and fanboys cannot be reasoned with.

Obviously, the statement about the computer exploding was hyperbole. It wouldn't actually explode if Windows couldn't handle a task...it night freeze or go BSOD (I might blow a gasket, though! ) ...but C'mon, you know what I mean. You have Win Mail minimized and a browser open to the Google main page...and you're showing 92% of the computer's resources in use? Might as well explode!

Originally Posted by jonyo superior is subjective and number of users mostly tells the tale superior to a small potatoes crowd means peanuts to the big boys, or movers and shakers

Now this is where I have a problem with youse guys....

You can not equate how good or bad something is by the number of people who use it. Marketing and advertising play a key role; the intelligence/knowledge of the users are a key factor; the fact that LOTS of money is involved in the distribution of Windows...etc. etc.

In fact, quite the opposite is usually true...the things which are popular, are usually the poorest value and of lower quality.

Is the Apple iPod better just because it is probably the most popular?

The Sansa Clip/Clip+ can kick iPud's donkey seven ways from Sunday....and is significantly cheaper. But most know nothing about the Sansa Clip, while everyone who is not under a rock has heard about iPud.

If numbers tell the story, than the Ford Focus must be the best car and McDonald's must be the best food......

Actually, the fact that Linux- off of which very little money is ever made by anyone, can garner even a 1% share of a market which is ruled by a conglomerate of huge corporations which generate BILLIONS of dollars, and can even garner a majority share of the OS real-estate where servers are concerned, really is an accomplishment and testimony to just how good it must be- and also illustrates how so many informed people love it, that they offer free support and development.

Originally Posted by Sumguy Actually, the fact that Linux- off of which very little money is ever made by anyone, can garner even a 1% share of a market which is ruled by a conglomerate of huge corporations which generate BILLIONS of dollars, and can even garner a majority share of the OS real-estate where servers are concerned, really is an accomplishment and testimony to just how good it must be- and also illustrates how so many informed people love it, that they offer free support and development.

frankly, no one outside of a small clique cares as far an numbers go

others would call those accomplishments chicken feed

seems to me that the biggest problem linux has is within itself, a remarkable lack of focus, and frankly many arguments that are made or themes spouted are just plain ridiculous and self defeating

actions speak louder than words, get folks using linux and the proof is then in the pudding

linux has failed miserably in that area and best to deal with reality if desiring to move forward

otherwise you have plenty of yapety yap

i do suspect that Linux will make great strides at some point as it already has in the past, but the whole scene seems to have petered out lately, and for some time now

then there are the blatant freak shows out there that reflect on all of linux

not to mention rampant in fighting that is also self defeating

whoever gets their act together will be the ones to take it to another level

can't say i've spent much time here but seems like a decent job is being done in promoting all of linux

===========

edit - ran across this
"Linux is NOT Windows. Doesn't PRETEND to be, Doesn't WANT to be; Don't try to MAKE it be:"

that will surely get you a f you in return

attitude alone can ruin you, attitude, attitude, attitude lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8To-6...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTkA9...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J-3h...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvsbo...eature=related

i used Vmware with no problem and I would create another machine and give it ram and some HDD space the thing is when I want to go into the other machine i made its not there. so did it install over the last one? The other thing I did was just uninstall the VMware did that get rid of the OS's I created? be cuz i made like 4 of them.

Originally Posted by jonyo seems to me that the biggest problem linux has is within itself, a remarkable lack of focus, and frankly many arguments that are made or themes spouted are just plain ridiculous and self defeating

What exactly do you mean? Lack of focus? It seems rather to me that different people/companies have built upon the Linux kernel in order to make various OS's that suit the needs and tastes of a wide variety of people, rather than trying to shove a single OS down everybody's throat, like MS does. This is one of the advantages of Linux.

Choice=good. The more distros there are, the more choices people have and the more chance they have of finding a distro that really suits them.

It doesn't matter if that fact fragments the potential customer base, because Linux is not selling anything. Linux exists so that those who learn of it and care to use it can have an alternative. It doesn't much matter whether two people use it or two billion. The more the various branches of Linux come together in pursuit of a common demographic, the less choice there will be; the more dumbed-down the OS will become and the more like Windows it will be....which will render it useless, because the whole point of it's existence is to provide an alternative to Windows and to give us the freedom to do what we want with our computers.

Since a corporation like MS needs to minimize differences in order to market one product to a wide customer base, to guarantee the highest profit...it has to cater to the broadest base of users and make one size fit all. Linux on the other hand, isn't concerned with making a profit, so it can cater to the individual or as many small groups as it chooses.

As long as there are people willing to produce and contribute to Linux...it will continue and can be deemed successful. The more the collective Linux producers chase the mainstream audience and seek to cater to them as a whole, the worse Linux will get and the more geeks it will lose...thus rendering itself unsustainable.