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Old 07-10-2011, 12:17 PM   #1156
Sumguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post


People have a choice - to ignore (or "put up with") the problem, or to search for solution. Please note that you seem to assume that using another OS is the only possible solution, which is incorrect. The solution is to fix the problem user experiencing. Switching OS is the "last resort" solution
Nay! If someone has a car that is a lemon, the solution to their continual problems is not to merely fix the problem at hand- because that problem is just symptomatic of a bigger overall problem and design flaws, and fixing each problem would only result in a temporary cure, and they would continue to experience problems which they would again have to fix. The real solution is to get rid of the lemon.

Windows is a lemon.





Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
(only in case of fundamental problem, which is almost never the case)
No, it's almost always the case. Windows degrades over time (Not a long time, either)-Things go wrong for no reason and it requires a lot of maintenance. I believe that this is intentional- a way to keep customers buying the latest and "greatest" OS.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
since it requires significant investment of time. Even if every person were a computer expert, at least half of people (if not majority) would not use Linux, because it does not suit their needs. Linux is useful for programmers/scientists/netwrok administrators because of its license and availability of source code. But for normal user the only things linux offers is ideology and price tag.
Now that's funny! I'm a normal user- a 49 year-old high-school drop-out, and Linux offers me a way to do basic computing without aggravation and annoyance; without having to spend lots of time doing maintenance and diagnosing and repairing problems, while offering good performance and ease of use, with the added benefit of having the power of things like scripting (or even just basic CLI commands). I'm not a progtammer, scientist or admin, and I didn't come to Linux because of any ideaology, but rather to get away from the crappy performance of Windows. If pointing out the flaws of something that doesn't work good, while touting the benefits of something that does work good, is an ideology...then maybe I have acquired one- )



Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
As far as I can tell, there's nothing else. All other features could be implemented on proprietary unix clone and many tools are available on other platforms, including windows (you can easily install bash on windows, for example, along with all other "power tools"). Windows, for example, has several platform-specific APIs that attract developers and result in exclusive windows-only applications. I cannot think of any similar technology on linux system.
Please...you're lucky if Windows can surf the net without crashing 5 times a day (Oh, yeah...I know "Not Windows 7" -every other OS Windows ever made, but not 7- until 6 months from now when it will be old and a new OS will replace it, and W7 will then be considered junk, just like all of it's predecessors). How much time would it take to install all of those "powertools" on Windows and then to keep the system working and maintained? Bash on Windows? Yeah...your computer would probably blow-up before any command could be successfully executed! And if programmers and developers use Windows, it is likely only because they want to guarantee compatibility with the OS which hogs the market- due to marketing tactics and not any positive features of the OS.

And actually, the way I understand it, I believe that many Windows programmers/developers prefer to work on Linux/Unix, even if their end product is destined for Windows. (Could be wrong about that- as it is not my field of expertise- but it seems I've heard that in several places over the years- even before I used Linux)

And I wouldn't care if Windows were free- I still wouldn't use it. I'm currently still dual-booted....and haven't used Windows in many months. I sought an alternative to Windows because of it's crappy performance and many built-in restrictions- and that was before I had ever used Linux. Now having used Linux, I have to cringe in disgust when I see how truly pathetic Windows is by comparison- on the same machine. By contrast, I've had Ubuntu on here for over a year now- and it has required no maintenance; given me no problems; offered good performance, and instead of getting in the way of what I want to do, it rather facilitates what I want to do and is practically invisible- like a good OS should be- it has made my computing experience so much more pleasant and productive- and it didn't take hours to install or learn how to use- It installed in under half an hour from the live CD I burned...and I was able to use it immediately- no hours of learning required- if one is not totally retarded and can use Windows....you can use Linux- out of the box.
 
Old 07-10-2011, 12:39 PM   #1157
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Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumguy View Post
No, it's almost always the case. Windows degrades over time (Not a long time, either)-Things go wrong for no reason and it requires a lot of maintenance. I believe that this is intentional- a way to keep customers buying the latest and "greatest" OS.
Look, if you hate windows and love linux, it is your problem.

To identify that a "fundamental problem" exists in operating system, you need to be a programmer. You are not a programmer. Your windows experience doesn't match mine in any way, so the reasonable conclusion would be that you don't know how to maintain windows OS properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumguy View Post
Bash on Windows? Yeah...your computer would probably blow-up before any command could be successfully executed!
Now that's just plain bulls**t. IMO, arguments like this one scare people away from linux. If you want to *argue* (and not to flame/troll), use better arguments.

Last edited by SigTerm; 07-10-2011 at 12:40 PM.
 
Old 07-10-2011, 12:44 PM   #1158
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Nothing like an unbiased factual opinion Sumguy.
 
Old 07-10-2011, 12:57 PM   #1159
Sumguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonyo View Post
linux needs to figure out how to appeal to a userbase and not fringe groups all over the place, or it is going nowhere fast
Going nowhere? It seems that Linux has already arrived- in that it does what it is supposed to do. Having a larger segment of the general population using Linux would not be of any real benefit to Linux nor to it's users (except perhaps as far as more developers making their products compatible with Linux)- it would only be of benefit to the millions of people in the dark out there, who struggle on at a smail's pace with crappy Windows OS's.
 
Old 07-10-2011, 01:06 PM   #1160
Sumguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetec View Post
Nothing like an unbiased factual opinion Sumguy.
I wouldn't exactly call it "biased" when one's opinion is formulated by the experience of having used both OS's, and the realization that one performs much better than the other. There's nothing "biased" about that. On the contrary, someone who is biased will choose/promote the OS that performs poorly while denigrating the free alternative which works better. To have a choice between two products and to choose the one you find superior, is hardly being "biased". What would such a bias be based on?
 
Old 07-10-2011, 02:52 PM   #1161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumguy View Post
There's nothing "biased" about that.
Really? You actually managed to produce the most ridiculous anti-windows argument I ever heard:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumguy View Post
Bash on Windows? Yeah...your computer would probably blow-up before any command could be successfully executed!
Which is biased. If you make up arguments like that just to support your point, then there is no reason to argue/talk with you about anything. Suit yourself.

Last edited by SigTerm; 07-10-2011 at 02:59 PM.
 
Old 07-11-2011, 01:33 AM   #1162
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Vbox with multiple distros?

Back up somewhat in this thread someone mentioned that you could only install one distro in one instance of VM. I know that is technicaly true, but:
Since you can boot vm (or vbox) from an *.iso file, it is posible (pretty easy actualy) to switch distros back and forth in a virtual machine, using *.iso files of live CDs. I've done it. But it's realy not a great idea, because you cant (so far as I know) install Guest addtions, without actually installing the distro. It will run from the *.iso, but not very comfortably. Unless you want to run half a dozen instances of Puppy, or some other very light distro.
 
Old 07-11-2011, 08:56 AM   #1163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumguy View Post
I wouldn't exactly call it "biased" when one's opinion is formulated by the experience of having used both OS's, and the realization that one performs much better than the other. There's nothing "biased" about that. On the contrary, someone who is biased will choose/promote the OS that performs poorly while denigrating the free alternative which works better. To have a choice between two products and to choose the one you find superior, is hardly being "biased". What would such a bias be based on?
I agree, having also used both Windows and Linux, I have found Linux to be the far superior system. This may be an arguable opinion, but it is not a bias, since it is founded upon experience and hard evidence. On the contrary, to label someone as 'biased' who has tried both and found one to be superior may itself be an indication of an unreasonable bias.
 
Old 07-11-2011, 09:03 AM   #1164
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This particular topic may have already been covered in this or some other "Linux vs Windows" thread, but I'll plow into it again anyway:

My computer does not have a flashing led to indicate hard disk activity, but when i boot to Windows, i can immediately hear the disk heads as they rattle back and forth accessing data from the FAT filesystem. When i boot to Linux and its ext3 filesystem, the heads are silent.

My question is this: Has a statistical study ever been done showing a correlation between filesystem usage and hard disk longevity?
 
Old 07-11-2011, 11:19 AM   #1165
SigTerm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogpatch View Post
FAT filesystem.
Hey, if you're still using FAT on Windows machine, it is definitely your fault. The filesystem is outdated, does not support journaling, does not support unicode, plus there are filesize limitations. You should switch to NTFS before making any comparisons.

It is impossible to take seriously "pro-linux" arguments when people that provide such argument say something about "using FAT system", "cleaning registry entire day", "rebooting many times per day", "spend a lot of time with AV software", because words like this indicate that you aren't familiar with windows OS, don't know how to maintain it, and doing something REALLY wrong with the OS. If you are familiar with Linux and aren't familiar with Windows, then don't blame all your Windows problems on Windows OS - they all result from your lack of windows knowledge.
 
Old 07-11-2011, 11:36 AM   #1166
Sumguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
Hey, if you're still using FAT on Windows machine, it is definitely your fault. The filesystem is outdated, does not support journaling, does not support unicode, plus there are filesize limitations. You should switch to NTFS before making any comparisons.
Well my last incarnation of Win-D'ohs used NTFS, and my hard drive groaned and rattled just as bad...nay WORSE than it did when I was still using WIN98 with FAT! (I actually rather liked WIN98- if one kept it maintained and ran a clean system, it worked pretty well- I used it up till 2008- guess that's why it took me so long to switch to Linux. My old 500MHZ box with Win98 was just as fast as my 3Ghz Vista machine).

Screaming, scratching blood-curdling hard drives are a given with Win-D'ohs, no matter what file system Win uses, because Windows is huge; inefficient and filled with bloat. As Dogpatch said, when one makes the switch to Linux, their hard drive gets nice and quiet and leads a much easier life. (And not only that, but my fan, which used to spend about 89% of it's time SCREAMING under Windows, is now quiet 99% of the time under Linux)

Last edited by Sumguy; 07-11-2011 at 11:59 AM.
 
Old 07-11-2011, 11:57 AM   #1167
Sumguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogpatch View Post
I agree, having also used both Windows and Linux, I have found Linux to be the far superior system. This may be an arguable opinion, but it is not a bias, since it is founded upon experience and hard evidence. On the contrary, to label someone as 'biased' who has tried both and found one to be superior may itself be an indication of an unreasonable bias.
Exactly! Thank you.

I mean, how could anyone be biased in favor of Linux? One can't own stock in Linux; One doesn't pay for Linux (So no need to justify having spent a lot of money); People don't work for Linux; Techies aren't making a fortune off of people bringing in Linux boxes for repair.....so how could one base their opinion of Linux on anything except performance? What possible reason would anyone have to be biased in favor of Linux? (And I'm not a communist- so I don't denigrate MS for making a profit- although many of their businesses practices are immoral....)

There's just no avoiding the fact that Linux works...and it works well.

Interesting too, that many here are making the argument that Windows is preferred by the masses/noobs/computer illiterates...well duh! That's like saying that sand is preferred over oil by those who don't know a spark plug from their hat. Meanwhile, Linux seems to be more popular with those who have some knowledge, and people who need a reliable OS because they make their living with computers (as I do) and those who run servers......

The bias of the Window fans here is apparent. They're essentially saying that I should denigrate the OS which works so well in favor of the one which doesn't, merely because the great unwashed masses use the latter, and because it has a bigger share of the market among home and office users.

Heheh....in your other post, where you mention all the hard drive noise, you immediately made me think of exactly what I'd here when I still ised to boot up Windows occasionally- sheesh, not only would my 'puter take minutes (instead of seconds) to boot-up...but the NOISE! And that noise always seem to be indicative of the performance I'd get, once in Windows...slow and creaky....making that hard drive groan and struggle to do the least little thing.

So glad I tried Linux, 'cause if I had had to stay with Windows, I think I would have thrown my 'puter out the window! (No wonder they call it Windows! Although, "garbage" would be more appropriate!)
 
Old 07-11-2011, 12:03 PM   #1168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumguy View Post
I mean, how could anyone be biased in favor of Linux? One can't own stock in Linux; One doesn't pay for Linux (So no need to justify having spent a lot of money); People don't work for Linux; Techies aren't making a fortune off of people bringing in Linux boxes for repair.....so how could one base their opinion of Linux on anything except performance?
Because of the open-source philosophy.
 
Old 07-11-2011, 12:59 PM   #1169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumguy View Post
So glad I tried Linux, 'cause if I had had to stay with Windows, I think I would have thrown my 'puter out the window! (No wonder they call it Windows! Although, "garbage" would be more appropriate!)
ya sure, everyone is thrilled by your experience, meanwhile, back to reality, whatever y'all like to babble on about in regards to windows, you can't even barely get folks interested in a free product

numbers tell the real tale, money talks and bs walks

talking about bias is a waste of time

might as well mention quick here that ran into a fella recently that wants to take puppy in a new direction, he's been here for a bit and some of you prob are aware of puppyite

it was discussed (if you wanna call what they do discussing..) to some extent with the original bunch but turned out we were both dumped and a forum is being setup to move forward

these are the themes touched on so far which appeal to me personally

-as easy as possible for the win victims

-and a desire to associate with ubuntu stuff

that's about it for now that i'm sorta aware of and all are welcome to join the party which will get going soon

however, i'm guessing at this point that if those 2 little thoughts are too much for any of y'all to deal with, or a modded forum with rules that apply equally to all, as well as starting with a mission statement, prob not for you

i used to be a puppy nut and actually mostly started there years ago and like many others, have been twiddling my thumbs, waiting to see some sigh of welcoming change

back to topic

Last edited by jonyo; 07-11-2011 at 03:37 PM.
 
Old 07-11-2011, 01:34 PM   #1170
SigTerm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumguy View Post
What possible reason would anyone have to be biased in favor of Linux?
OpenSource philosophy + black and white thinking (us vs them). Certain people treat it as if it a religion, which essentually makes them unreasonable and blind/deaf to weak parts of linux. Remove the lunatics, and the decent discussion will be possible. Plus it is not uncommon for a newbie to get "high" for a first month or two when he just discovered iptables but hadn't hit first serious linux-specific problem yet.

Linus had a few things to say about black-and-white thinking and "free software extremists", by the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumguy View Post
There's just no avoiding the fact that Linux works...and it works well.
"Works" - yes. "Works Well" - that doesn't always happen, depends on your task. Same applies to all operating systems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumguy View Post
The bias of the Window fans here is apparent. They're essentially saying that I should ...
That's a strawman. Your computer is your property, so you can as well cut it in half with a chainsaw if you want, I don't give a damn. If you want decent discussion, however, then you shouldn't invent ridiculous arguments (about bash exploding computer) out of the blue, because doing so makes you no different from average fanboy, and fanboys cannot be reasoned with.
 
  


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