You're correct, I could do that. Bad example.

See and that line is not clearly drawn. For example, I am using a tool called "adtool" to create Windows AD accounts from a Linux console. It's GNU/GPL, but AD is obviously not. But it is a tool that I depend on to do my daily tasks. Would I abandon it, just because it "might" not be free? Heck, no, because it would slow down my day-to-day tasks and noone would be happy to see that happening.

There is very fine, but grey area between being able to free-to-use software and free software. If it makes my life easier, I'll go for it. Would I abandon Compiz on my testing machine, because my ATI card only works with proprietary drivers? Nah.

Even until a few years ago that subject never had to come up, because there simply wasn't a single line of proprietary code. The fronts seem to be merging now up to a point where proprietary software will eventually become mandatory. Yea, not really good for Linux or open-source, because it is the same reason why Windows failed for me. It's usually not the OS that creates the problems, but the !@$# drivers (at least for me). Here we are months/years later and no really good ATi drivers (just an example).

We are using HP HBA's in some of our servers. Well, their drivers are closed. Another example. If I didn't choose those drivers, Linux would be out the door in many companies sooner than we could wink. It's a struggle and a compromise - every day.

I think developers (not only Debian) need to realize that there are in fact many aspects that Linux can NOT do without proprietary drivers. 10 years ago, noone cared and patiently waited until new hardware is merged into the kernel. Right now, it just won't work anymore, as far as I am concerned. I still remember waiting for USB support. Hasn't been there for years and was never an issue. Nowadays it is a big, big deal.

Pat

Oh please. What part of the following didn't you read?
Let me get this straight. You complain about problems with proprietary sw and then complain about why Debian installs don't include them automatically? I'll just go and google the answer for that one.
Btw, you do know about the Debian non-free repos, don't you? They include among other stuff ATI drivers. Something an old linux hand wouldn't use is of course ATI cards since Nvidia has had, has and will have better linux support.

We're talking about seperate topics now. Never said, I wanted proprietary drivers in the default install. On the contrary, I expected a bare-bones system that I can build to suit my needs. Debian didn't fulfull my expecations -or- to say more appropriately, I didn't see a (technical) major difference between Debian and Ubuntu after a "minimal" install, because you can install both with the bare-metal (only kernel, gcc ,libs, coreutils, etc) Linux system that you can tweak and customize to fit your needs. I think there is a common misconception that Ubuntu installs per default everything, when it in fact does not. The only difference I noted was that the Ubuntu community has been a lot more active to help me find to fix some of my issues. And you have to admit that you just don't know the URL for libdvdcss on top of your head, don't you? Or how to fix acpi on a HP dv5020.

Compare Debian and Slackware - 10 years ago and now. Debian tries (now, after years of self-admitted "slacking") to catch up with Ubuntu (technically), while Slack stayed its course. Slack is still a highly technical power-user distro. Debian? Not so sure anymore.

That was my point.

Pat

Posted by aerdt:

Troll or no troll, I think the OP should go away and get his ideas straightened out and his arguments in some sort of array.
Personally, I think, looking at the Ubuntu, Sabayon, Arch distro line-up, that here is someone that values the easy life. Fair enough, but then don't pretend to be some kind of IT know-it-all guru. Even I know how to install a distro (including Slackware) and tailor it to my needs and I make no professional claims.

Don't have to, its in my sources.list. But then you'd know how to do that wouldn't you? And from memory it's videolan.org (I can google for that).

Yea, "mikieboy", easy to just pick phrases out of context. Are you a journalist for Fox News?

Yes, I value the easy life (and what is "easy" about Arch)? But I know my shit. I have a computer science and engineering degree, was a Linux developer and have 15 years of professional experience in system administration (and self-admitted geek who mostly knows what he's doing). I can program in C, C++, perl, php, python and VBscript/WMI. So much for references, because they don't mean anything, because I could be a 15 yo. pimply kid that's just brilliant out-of-the-box. You asked for it, you got it. And I don't claim to be a know-it-all, because that's not who I am. And yes, I sometimes even struggle to compile a kernel, because I forget for the love of God if the "loopback" needs to be installed in order to make xyz working. How dare you draw conclusions.

Why don't you come up with something constructive? Where did I state I was a know-it-all. Get YOUR facts straight. No need to post, if you don't have anything to say.

I have spent the better part of the day brining my point across and noone except makuyl has something to say, except "blah". There was a time when everyone in the community used to friendly and helpful and that spanned across distro fanboi-ship. Clearly I must have tripped a wire somewhere by claiming that Debian tries to catch up to Ubuntu, when it would be better to stay at the roots, like Slack.

When did it become offensive, if someone's views at something are critical? It seems to be a common denominator in messageboards these days.

I'm sure at some point this thread will be locked and a meaningful discussion (a.k.a. discussion board/forum) will never take place, because people like you take personal offense in constructive criticism and try to drip of hidden sarcasm, instead of just chimimg in and bringing YOUR point across.

Pat

*buntu IS Debian, or at least it is based on Debian. If it wasn't for Debian at least half of the distros out there wouldn't exist.

Enough Said. There is a reason damn near half of the available distros out there choose to use Debian. It works, it is stable and it has more packages available than pretty much any other distro. When you are really ready to use Linux you choose Debian.

aerdt

Ummmm!
I'm not sure what I should say.
Can you see what distributions I use in my profile?
I put Ubuntu right next to one of about 15 other operating systems I work with that are not in my profile because they are not Linux. I put Ubuntu right next to Mac OS
Every company, manufacturer, corporation, open source development team has a "target market". Mac is for kids, the "not so knowledged ones".
Based on the content of all your post here in this thread, I would say Ubuntu is for you. Go for it!
Below is a quote you should spend time thinking about:

Personally, I don't care if you like or dislike Debian. No skin off my nose. Just a couple of things:

- Firefox got unbranded and renamed Iceweasel. Same program. Same functionality.
- Thunderbird got unbranded and renamed Icedove. Same program. Same functionality.
- Seamonkey got unbranded and renamed Iceape. Same program. Same functionality.

(You can find out the backstory for yourself.)

- Epiphany is a standard GNOME browser that certainly has less functionality than Firefox/Iceweasel, but it's not specific to Debian.

There's this forum (LQ), and the Debian User Forums. IMHO, end-user support is a weak spot with Debian and is one of the main reasons Debian derivatives like Ubuntu have become so popular.

I happen to think that a distro with a binary package pool of 18,000+ programs that are fine-tuned to install and run without dependency conflicts, that runs on 10 architectures, is pretty cool. "Glamorous" has nothing to do with it. If I want "glamorous," I make GRUB, bootsplash, kdm, and my KDE desktop all look nice.

aerdt, I hear what you're saying. I just don't understand why you're saying it. Liked noted, Ubuntu doesn't care about "free" as in free speech like Debian does. Otoh, Debian gives you the option of running a free software system without you checking the license of every single package. Ubuntu took the decision from you. Yes, that might make Ubuntu easier to install, but the nonfree multimedia stuff like libdvdcss et.al. is just an apt-get away from the debian-multimedia repo, and I don't need an url while the repo is enough. Is libdvdcss really part of an Ubuntu install without apt-getting it? Hmm... another bad example I take it.
The Debian devel team has made the decision about free software and I don't get why you can't just respect their decision. It was, after all, theirs to make. Just having a different opinion doesn't make their decision wrong now does it? I dare say some people here understand that decision.
As for Ubuntu having scripts and GUIs to help the user, another hmmm as I prefer cleaner code and less frontends.
One thing to consider is what eco2geek pointed out. A lot of archs make a lot of work. The Ubuntu organization having bought over some Debian devels didn't really help Debian, and yet Ubuntu depends on Debian. So guess why some Debian devels and users don't much care about *buntu. Ubuntu devels can after all, concentrate on making nice GUIs and frontends when the Debian devels have already made the progs work. Not the case with every prog, but a lot, yes. So feel free to go with a distro that rips the work of it's mother distro and concentrates on making the desktop look nice. It's your choise.

From my experience, Kubuntu features a smooth surface, while Debian Etch
is by far more reliable - and predicable in terms of (non-)development.

On a "deeper level", I appreciate that Debian is very well documented
- not least due to the fact that those guys don't change /factual standards/
(as Ubuntu does, thus rendering most of their own documentation obsolete)

I have evaluated several distros and IMO Debian is the best by far for reliability, security, stability and productivity.

Well-said. This is the main reason I have deployed 9 Etch work stations in my classroom where I teach. I am far too busy working with my children to worry about system failures. I stopped using Ubuntu as I have experienced breakage when updating Ubuntu systems. And, yes I do know how to go in and repair breakage issues. But, who wants to deal with that?
My Etch stations are reliable as Hell, they never break. My students use their Linux stations to do research on the Internet, write reports, and poems, etc.
Debian is rock-solid:-)

You're not going to change this guy's mind, so why bother replying.

We like Debian, he doesn't. Big deal.

IMO, what would have been appropriate is for this thread to have a big fat "0" (that's zero; cero) under replies.

Norm

I hear what you're saying Norm, but I'm fed up to the back teeth with Ubuntu evangelists. They seem to go one further than most distro fans who just tell you how good their distro is by telling you what's wrong with your distro of choice. I won't be sorry when Shuttleworth sells Ubuntu to M$ and the rest of us can get on with what we're doing.

Mikie

i tried each of ubuntu's releases and still come back to debian...