The mass exodus if Slackware uses Systemd

k3lt01 · 11-06-2014, 01:11 AM

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Originally Posted by ReaperX7

Everyone bases things on what they know at the current time.

Not everyone continuously posts things that are wrong even after they have been corrected.

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Originally Posted by ReaperX7

Just because you know more than someone else doesn't give you, me, or anyone the "right" to condemn anyone for what they have or lack in knowledge. Just because you tell someone to do research doesn't mean you should put them on blast and start a tirade of correcting them with a disrespectful tone.

No tone given or implied just mirroring your style.

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Originally Posted by ReaperX7

As I said in other posts, everyone can learn things, so please stop the needless attacks on what I or anyone does or doesn't know at that current time.

I will stop correcting you when you stop posting incorrect information. Standing by and not correcting you, when I know you are wrong and leading people astray, means I am implicit in your actions.

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Originally Posted by ReaperX7

There is something called being respectful with sharing knowledge, updating others in knowledge, and using better etiquette to help with knowledge with others to bring them up to speed.

I hope you continue with this new found desire to share knowledge respectfully.

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Originally Posted by ReaperX7

I do apologize for getting information wrong but there's no need for attacking someone for getting something wrong, even me.

Getting things wrong happens to everyone, continuously posting wrong information from one thread to another even after you are corrected has been a problem.

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Originally Posted by ReaperX7

Good day.

Good afternoon.

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Originally Posted by ReaperX7

Now I believe we've steered the topic far enough off course, so shall we get back to discussing Slackware and the possibility of having more choices of software or using software that is more in tune with the founding philosophy of Slackware before people start worrying about what their next step in operating systems shall be?

I thought this thread was about a mass exodus and I thought that had been thoroughly answered with a resounding no there wont be a mass exodus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReaperX7

As I mentioned in a previous post, possibly a better question would be, would people leave Slackware if it abandoned it's core principles?

I think the answer will remain the same. The majority of Slackers will continue using Slackware because they trust PV. Trying to create an unlikely hypothetical situation, suggesting that PV will "abandon Slackware's (meaning his) core principals, in order to get the answer you seem to want is not very respectful of either Slackware or PV.

NoStressHQ · 11-06-2014, 01:15 AM

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Originally Posted by a4z

the argument about the binary log files is boring

Correct me if I'm wrong: this argument has been raised in the debate in the DEFENSE of systemd not to attack it... On my side my answer was that this "feature" is useless..

Beside, I didn't say it was "impossible"... You're ignoring all the causality chain: it's not because someone does it, and it's possible to do it, that this become a good idea... Keeping the same LANGUAGE as the rest of the system is the basis of "interoperability"... There's one language in unix: the file/text/shell "blob".. this is the glue of interoperability... Systemd might solve super important issues, its design (seems, I don't have time to dig into, I have enough work "like this"

), or what I understand of its design has some "fundamental" failure... But I don't want to debate about systemd again...

Sorry, I felt I was partly "targetted" with your remarks, I wanted to clarify: the point was raised by a "pro systemd" so yes, I feel bore of this false positive argument.

And no, you can't dismiss the fundamental technical argument point towards "people do things different" as the single and terminal argument... And then ? What else ? Does it makes it better ? Was it the sole answer to the problem ? I don't dismiss because it's different, I dismiss because for now the arguments were invalid on a "technical point of view"... In my 'school of view' if you want, but it needs causality arguments, not rhetorical sophism...

k3lt01 · 11-06-2014, 01:35 AM

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Originally Posted by kikinovak

As long as Slackware's lack of choices is sane, I don't mind having no other options.

I haven't suggested lack of choice is a problem.

belka.ew · 11-06-2014, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoStressHQ

Correct me if I'm wrong: this argument has been raised in the debate in the DEFENSE of systemd not to attack it... On my side my answer was that this "feature" is useless..

And no, you can't dismiss the fundamental technical argument point towards "people do things different" as the single and terminal argument... And then ? What else ? Does it makes it better ? Was it the sole answer to the problem ? I don't dismiss because it's different, I dismiss because for now the arguments were invalid on a "technical point of view"... In my 'school of view' if you want, but it needs causality arguments, not rhetorical sophism...

"people do things different" wasn't the single and terminal argument. "people do things different" was the conclusion from another bundle of arguments. If all arguments that say something different aren't technical enough for somebody, nobody can do something against it; if you think they are wrong, it is ok and can be accepted since it is the reason we discuss them.

Just a part of the article I referred before:

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1. The message data is generally not authenticated, every local process can claim to be Apache under PID 4711, and syslog will believe that and store it on disk.
2. The data logged is very free-form. Automated log-analyzers need to parse human language strings to a) identify message types, and b) parse parameters from them. This results in regex horrors, and a steady need to play catch-up with upstream developers who might tweak the human language log strings in new versions of their software. Effectively, in a away, in order not to break user-applied regular expressions all log messages become ABI of the software generating them, which is usually not intended by the developer.
3. The timestamps generally do not carry timezone information, even though some newer specifications define support for it.
4. Syslog is only one of many log systems on local machines. Separate logs are kept for utmp/wtmp, lastlog, audit, kernel logs, firmware logs, and a multitude of application-specific log formats. This is not only unnecessarily complex, but also hides the relation between the log entries in the various subsystems.
5. Reading log files is simple but very inefficient. Many key log operations have a complexity of O(n). Indexing is generally not available.
6. The syslog network protocol is very simple, but also very limited. Since it generally supports only a push transfer model, and does not employ store-and-forward, problems such as Thundering Herd or packet loss severely hamper its use.
7. Log files are easily manipulable by attackers, providing easy ways to hide attack information from the administrator
8. Access control is non-existent. Unless manually scripted by the administrator a user either gets full access to the log files, or no access at all.
9. The meta data stored for log entries is limited, and lacking key bits of information, such as service name, audit session or monotonic timestamps.
10. Automatic rotation of log files is available, but less than ideal in most implementations: instead of watching disk usage continuously to enforce disk usage limits rotation is only attempted in fixed time intervals, thus leaving the door open to many DoS attacks.
11. Rate limiting is available in some implementations, however, generally does not take the disk usage or service assignment into account, which is highly advisable.
12. Compression in the log structure on disk is generally available but usually only as effect of rotation and has a negative effect on the already bad complexity behaviour of many key log operations.
13. Classic Syslog traditionally is not useful to handle early boot or late shutdown logging, even though recent improvements (for example in systemd) made this work.
14. Binary data cannot be logged, which in some cases is essential (Examples: ATA SMART blobs or SCSI sense data, firmware dumps)

7 was discussed before, it's nice.

one of your main arguments was, that the logging system is OS level and it should be the text. As a4z wrote, there are people, who would disagree - if you say, that it is technically wrong, then it is technically wrong from your point of view.

but binary logs are just an example to here to avoid the searching for another one.

lems · 11-06-2014, 02:34 AM

Not sure if this was mentioned already, but even Torvalds himself does not like binary logs:

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iTWire: Systemd seems to depart to a large extent from the original idea of simplicity that was a hallmark of UNIX systems. Would you agree? And is this a good or a bad thing?

Linus Torvalds: So I think many of the "original ideals" of UNIX are these days more of a mindset issue than necessarily reflecting reality of the situation.

There's still value in understanding the traditional UNIX "do one thing and do it well" model where many workflows can be done as a pipeline of simple tools each adding their own value, but let's face it, it's not how complex systems really work, and it's not how major applications have been working or been designed for a long time. It's a useful simplification, and it's still true at *some* level, but I think it's also clear that it doesn't really describe most of reality.

It might describe some particular case, though, and I do think it's a useful teaching tool. People obviously still do those traditional pipelines of processes and file descriptors that UNIX is perhaps associated with, but there's a *lot* of cases where you have big complex unified systems.

And systemd is in no way the piece that breaks with old UNIX legacy. Graphical applications seldom worked that way (there are certainly _echoes_ of it in things like "LyX", but I think it's the exception rather than the rule), and then there's obviously the traditional counter-example of GNU emacs, where it really was not about the "simple UNIX model", but a whole new big infrastructure thing. Like systemd.

Now, I'm still old-fashioned enough that I like my log-files in text, not binary, so I think sometimes systemd hasn't necessarily had the best of taste, but hey, details..

http://www.itwire.com/business-it-ne...ons-on-systemd

belka.ew · 11-06-2014, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lems

Not sure if this was mentioned already, but even Torvalds himself does not like binary logs:

http://www.itwire.com/business-it-ne...ons-on-systemd

Right. He understands at least, that the systems and problems, that should be solved, became more complex.

a4z · 11-06-2014, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoStressHQ

Correct me if I'm wrong: this argument has been raised in the debate in the DEFENSE of systemd not to attack it... On my side my answer was that this "feature" is useless..

when I was writing about the binary log I did it not because of you. it was meant more in general...

a4z · 11-06-2014, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kikinovak

Thank God there are millions of alpha testers out there.

and some distributions just exist for this purpose.
it is still all about choice
but I am not sure if the RHEL7 users are so happy with their role as guinea pig

Didier Spaier · 11-06-2014, 02:54 AM

@lems: This article was already quoted by enorbet in post #290 of this thread. About Linus' opinions (or lack of), better link to this interview already mentioned in this thread as well.

Oh, and all this exegesis increasingly make this thread look like one about religion and I don't think that's useful. We've already enough prophets, I think.

Germany_chris · 11-06-2014, 04:11 AM

Of course this thread is religious, the OP was religious, to top it this is the Slackware section the whole distro is about religion. When you have posts in a thread that say "slackware is an attitude" that should indicate that this will be the Linux version of the Mac/PC debate with Slackware users acting the part of the Mac. In the end PP will provide what he thinks is best and most will like it and we'll move on.

Nothing seems rarer to me today than genuine hypocrisy. I greatly suspect that the soft air of our culture is insalubrious for this plant. Hypocrisy belongs in the ages of strong faith when, even though constrained to display another faith, one did not abandon one's own faith. Today one does abandon it; or, even more commonly, one adds a second faith — and in either case one remains honest. -- Nietzsche, Twilight of the Idols

ReaperX7 · 11-06-2014, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k3lt01

I think the answer will remain the same. The majority of Slackers will continue using Slackware because they trust PV. Trying to create an unlikely hypothetical situation, suggesting that PV will "abandon Slackware's (meaning his) core principals, in order to get the answer you seem to want is not very respectful of either Slackware or PV.

And I think one of the biggest insults to Slackware are all the topics centered around wanting Slackware to be more like other distributions like Fedora, Arch, SuSE, etc. and you say my question was disrespectful? And please don't tear apart a post nitpicking selections just to troll me. I don't need that, and you're a better person than that.

brianL · 11-06-2014, 04:59 AM

I don't view Slackware as a religion, I simply prefer it as it is to all the other distros I've tried. The same way I prefer beef to pork, lamb, or chicken. I don't want beef to taste like lamb, or Slackware to be like Fedora. No religion or philosophy involved. No need to quote Nietzsche, who was crazy probably due to tertiary syphilis.
Praise "Bob"!

ReaperX7 · 11-06-2014, 05:06 AM

At least we aren't quoting Abdul Alhazred.

brianL · 11-06-2014, 05:19 AM

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When systemd doth all distros rule,
Then shall Cthulhu rise again.

--Abdul Alhazred, The Necronomicon

Germany_chris · 11-06-2014, 05:31 AM

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Originally Posted by brianL

I don't view Slackware as a religion, I simply prefer it as it is to all the other distros I've tried. The same way I prefer beef to pork, lamb, or chicken. I don't want beef to taste like lamb, or Slackware to be like Fedora. No religion or philosophy involved. No need to quote Nietzsche, who was crazy probably due to tertiary syphilis.
Praise "Bob"!

Toward the end he was a bit of a loony toon which is why you won't often read me pulling from Ecce Homo, I also think he was gay which could have also pushed him over the brink in the era he lived. I pull Nietzsche because in threads like this because he doesn't hold punches when pointing out human flaw.

If you were the guy that said "slackware is an attitude" then you've moved beyond preference liking pork is not an attitude. When Slackware moves to systemd people will still use Slackware all this fire an brimstone about the evil systemd will go away and we'll move on the next controversy. Then in the future when systemd is replaced the same stuff will pop up with people wanting to keep it. Like most all things in life this is transient dilemma, a dilemma for now, short attention span drama.