Feedback on a "General" Detox and Making LQ A Friendlier Place.

jeremy · 12-31-2016, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dugan

It absolutely does not apply. I haven't, I won't until my signature is no longer relevant, and I intend my signature to be a resource.

You indicating you will never change your .sig ignores my other two points, and results in you having no idea whether the person(s) you've told to see the links in your .sig can actually see your .sig (whether that be a member who has disabled them, or a guest who never sees them).

--jeremy

dogpatch · 12-31-2016, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ser Olmy

In the real world, there are many opposing viewpoints on nearly(?) every subject. If we have to pretend this is not the case in order to send a "warm inclusive welcome" and make everybody feel "comfortable", then I believe we will either have to:

1) Create what is known as a "safe space", a make-believe environment where people pretend to hold no opinions on anything of any significance, and define all non-technical discussions as off-topic. This would obviously mean deleting "General".

2) Simply accept that some people might feel unwelcome when they're faced with the reality that others disagree with them on certain subjects, and that there's really nothing other people ought to be doing to accommodate those that are so easily offended.

The problem with #1 is that literally anything can be construed as uncivil or harsh or unwelcoming by someone who chooses to take offense. As the saying goes, offense is taken, not given. It's not a coincidence that several (non technical) forums that implemented strict "safe space" policies have since degenerated into virtual police states with recurring flame wars and mass bannings.

<rant>
One of the things I really like about working in IT is that among professionals, at least most of the time, it's a near-perfect meritocracy. Knowledge and logic rules. There's no room for "feeling" of "believing" whether or not there's sufficient disk space or bandwidth, and the way backups are configured either provide security against system failure or it doesn't. It's all about finding hard facts and how to properly interpret them.

People in IT design systems, perform maintenance, analyze logs. We form hypotheses as to what's causing certain (usually undesirable) behaviour in a system, and then formulate theories that can be tested and either proven or disproven by experiment.

Why, then, should we of all people be incapable of even discussing existential and much more fundamental questions regarding, say, political or religious philosophy? Are we such illogical creatures that we are perfectly able to debate the merits of various Linux distributions in an objective fashion, but at the same time completely thrown off track if someone as much as mentions Donald Trump, Obama, guns, AGW, or Jesus in a .sig? Really?
</rant>

Personally, I don't even mind proselytizing, as long as it's somehow on-topic. So user X wants me to become a Mormon or a democrat or join the NRA? Fine, he can make his case, as long as I get to (politely) respond with my reasons for vehemently disagreeing, or get to just leave if I don't feel it's worth my time to participate.

I enjoyed Ser Olmy's use of <rant></rant> so well that i've done something akin with my (gasp! religious!) sig.

rknichols · 12-31-2016, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremy

Remember that if enough members mark a post as helpful, it will be shown at the top of the thread directly under the OP with a mention that it is the most helpful response.

Does that happen today, or is it something in the upcoming new version? I see two problems there. First, it is quite rare in a technical support thread for more than one person to mark a post as helpful, extremely rare for more than two. Second, in a lengthy thread the point referenced in the helpful response sometimes doesn't come up until late in the thread. Moving that post to the top, where it is out of context, is just confusing.

goumba · 12-31-2016, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremy

Remember that if enough members mark a post as helpful, it will be shown at the top of the thread directly under the OP with a mention that it is the most helpful response. This accomplishes what you're asking for above without the need for the OP to mark a specific response (which is in our experience much less likely to happen).

--jeremy

I didn't know this, and hadn't noticed it before to be honest. Is this significant number to this "enough members", that we nearly never see it?

jeremy · 12-31-2016, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rknichols

Does that happen today, or is it something in the upcoming new version? I see two problems there. First, it is quite rare in a technical support thread for more than one person to mark a post as helpful, extremely rare for more than two. Second, in a lengthy thread the point referenced in the helpful response sometimes doesn't come up until late in the thread. Moving that post to the top, where it is out of context, is just confusing.

It is very clearly marked and also appears chronologically as expected.

--jeremy

cynwulf · 01-02-2017, 12:45 PM

What a huge song and dance about nothing at all...

newbiesforever · 01-02-2017, 09:49 PM

I now ignore blatantly irrelevant threads and probably haven't started one in years, so I can't really know if the problem is there; but if it is, I would be surprised. In the first place, the most practical solution to rudeness in off-topic threads is: stay out of off-topic threads. I'm Christian, but have no interest in posting about religion in a Linux forum.

So, then, what of Linux-related threads? Posting here has become a last resort to me, especially when I'm not in a good mood and don't feel like reading snideness and condescension in responses. I never know when that's going to happen, and can't post anymore without unease. Frequently I type something, stare at the screen for a while, then finally close the tab and move on, deciding it's safer. Behavior on online forums I visit, including this one, has led me to question the wisdom of participating. (That's why I said I would be surprised if the problem is really in the off-topic posts: behavior in the on-topic ones is unpredictable enough.)

hydrurga · 01-03-2017, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newbiesforever

I now ignore blatantly irrelevant threads and probably haven't started one in years, so I can't really know if the problem is there; but if it is, I would be surprised. In the first place, the most practical solution to rudeness in off-topic threads is: stay out of off-topic threads. I'm Christian, but have no interest in posting about religion in a Linux forum.

So, then, what of Linux-related threads? Posting here has become a last resort to me, especially when I'm not in a good mood and don't feel like reading snideness and condescension in responses. I never know when that's going to happen, and can't post anymore without unease. Frequently I type something, stare at the screen for a while, then finally close the tab and move on, deciding it's safer. Behavior on online forums I visit, including this one, has led me to question the wisdom of participating. (That's why I said I would be surprised if the problem is really in the off-topic posts: behavior in the on-topic ones is unpredictable enough.)

I'm genuinely sorry to hear that you are reticent to post here. Personally I've found the folk on here very helpful, although the sarcasm meter certainly can twitch markedly for replies on threads where the OP has not expressed the question well or appears to be putting no effort themselves into solving their problem.

The key thing I have learned is not to take anything personally and to accept criticism when it's given (and to ignore it if I think it is unmerited). There's also the problem of miscommunication - only just recently I posted a jokey comment on a general thread, complete with winking emoticon at the end, and it was taken seriously by at least a couple of posters. It's difficult enough sometimes to have good communication when two people are face to face, but when we're restricted to written words in a language in which we are not all native speakers, problems of understanding can arise.

Please do bear with us, and thanks from me personally for your approach not to proselytise other folk with your personal beliefs - that certainly earns my respect.

cynwulf · 01-03-2017, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newbiesforever

I never know when that's going to happen, and can't post anymore without unease. Frequently I type something, stare at the screen for a while, then finally close the tab and move on, deciding it's safer. Behavior on online forums I visit, including this one, has led me to question the wisdom of participating. (That's why I said I would be surprised if the problem is really in the off-topic posts: behavior in the on-topic ones is unpredictable enough.)

You may simply need to grow a thicker skin, but I don't condone belittling or condescending behaviour... techie types tend to think that the world revolves around their OS of choice and that if you can't grasp it, then you must automatically be dumb. It's common, it's always been the case and it's probably not going to change.

It's the same with posting on the forum, it's often assumed by some that you will just know how to use the forum, understand all the 'etiquette' and have first sat down and read all the rules and guidelines.

I've written in my blogs, that I believe there is a certain type of user, who makes a career out of stepping on others to raise themselves up. I don't know of any at this forum, but I only post in certain sections.

I think most of the "grumps" at this site are just passionate about what they do and genuinely want to help users to help themselves rather than spoonfeeding "solutions". Trying to convince/force them to sugar coat everything could simply cause a backlash and see an exodus of experienced users (it's happened before elsewhere).

mostlyharmless · 01-03-2017, 08:17 AM

I'm rather inclined to agree with newbiesforever, and think Jeremy's concern is legitimate. Something has changed in this site over the last 8 years that I have frequented it, or perhaps it's a larger societal thing. Yes, you have to be thick skinned to post, yes, miscommunication is easy, yes IT folks are not renowned for the social graces: none of these things are new. But something here at LQ seems to be. However, I have no constructive suggestions, lacking an accurate diagnosis.

newbiesforever · 01-03-2017, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mostlyharmless

I'm rather inclined to agree with newbiesforever, and think Jeremy's concern is legitimate. Something has changed in this site over the last 8 years that I have frequented it, or perhaps it's a larger societal thing. Yes, you have to be thick skinned to post, yes, miscommunication is easy, yes IT folks are not renowned for the social graces: none of these things are new. But something here at LQ seems to be. However, I have no constructive suggestions, lacking an accurate diagnosis.

I'm afraid I know no appropriate solution either, except to run from such behavior. In addition to making me want to avoid posting on LQ, it has had the more useful effect of making me try much harder to solve my own problems.

newbiesforever · 01-03-2017, 08:34 AM

Rudeness in discussion forums in general led me to reflect on how very easy it is to be a jerk online in the first place. You are talking to people who exist only as pixels on your screen. You're bound to take them less seriously than if they're standing in front of you; and if so, any rude tendencies you may have will be magnified.

schneidz · 01-03-2017, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sefyir

Concur with this.
I've seen quite a few threads that go along the lines of:
Quote:
"Hi. I'm new to linux. How do I do X"

A bunch of people asking what the person has done, their purpose, etc.

Typical response of "Thank you for posting YZ to helping me, but how I do X?"

Several pages of a downward spiral of people posting that OP isn't posting relevant info as asked and is asking for handouts and OP posting they're being mistreated in some way.

i think things like this mite help:
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...ol-4175595364/
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...ng-4175509407/

hazel · 01-03-2017, 08:53 AM

@cynwulf
I used to visit the Debian forum for a while, some years ago, and I noticed that the atmosphere was much harsher and more bracing than I was used to. There were a lot of RTFMs and similar curt, dismissive comments. Obviously each forum has its own traditional culture and if you don't like it, you can always go elsewhere. But I also saw people posting complaints that the mods were cracking down on this sort of behaviour and "trying to turn Debian into Ubuntu". I seem to remember that this led to a schism and the setting up of a new Debian Users' forum.

PS I just went over to that forum out of curiosity. It still exists but doesn't appear to be very active.

newbiesforever · 01-03-2017, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazel

@cynwulf
I used to visit the Debian forum for a while, some years ago, and I noticed that the atmosphere was much harsher and more bracing than I was used to. There were a lot of RTFMs and similar curt, dismissive comments. Obviously each forum has its own traditional culture and if you don't like it, you can always go elsewhere. But I also saw people posting complaints that the mods were cracking down on this sort of behaviour and "trying to turn Debian into Ubuntu". I seem to remember that this led to a schism and the setting up of a new Debian Users' forum.

This is a very interesting comment that can engender any number of observations.

It's probably impossible to say this inoffensively. Because Debian is a favorite of distro designers--programmers--and programmers tend to have limited social skills (which has already been noted here), many longtime Debian users are bound to behave like that. In fact, I'm not even sure why new Linux users would go to a Debian forum in particular except that they have no idea what they're getting into.