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Old 10-04-2003, 01:05 PM   #1
leiavoia
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Registered: Mar 2002
Distribution: Debian Testing & Kubuntu
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No /dev/sda1 for mounting camera?


The goal: mount my new Canon Rebel 300D to linux directly via USB

The problem: i have no device /dev/sda1 to mount to

mounting the drive is not a problem. i can figure that out. i've got my fstab all set up and ready to go for it. but there is no drive to mount. all the other camera/USB threads and tutorials talk about how to load modules and add /dev/sda1 to your fstab, yada yada yada, but i don't *have* /dev/sda1. So, where does it come from and how do i get mine? I know it's a SCSI device, but i've also got a CD Writer installed and working, so i know that the SCSI system is working to an extent. I also know USB works basically. Can anyone help or tell me where /dev/sda1 comes from? Am i going to have to recompile my kernel? (noooo!!!)

------------------------------------------

tail -f /var/log/messages outputs the following when plugging in and turning on my camera:

Oct 4 10:47:56 levbox kernel: hub.c: new USB device 00:02.1-2, assigned address 5
Oct 4 10:47:56 levbox kernel: usb.c: USB device 5 (vend/prod 0x4a9/0x3084) is not claimed by any active driver.
Oct 4 10:48:00 levbox /etc/hotplug/usb.agent: ... no modules for USB product 4a9/3084/1
Oct 4 10:48:02 levbox kernel: usb.c: USB disconnect on device 00:02.1-2 address 5

----------------------------------------------

lsmod shows:

Module Size Used by Tainted: P
ide-floppy 15580 0 (autoclean)
binfmt_misc 7020 1
i810_audio 26248 1
ac97_codec 12488 0 [i810_audio]
nfsd 74256 8 (autoclean)
af_packet 14952 1 (autoclean)
sr_mod 16920 0 (autoclean)
floppy 55132 0
3c90x 27916 1 (autoclean)
ohci1394 19048 0 (unused)
ieee1394 45900 0 [ohci1394]
nls_iso8859-1 3516 1 (autoclean)
nls_cp850 4316 1 (autoclean)
vfat 11820 1 (autoclean)
fat 37944 0 (autoclean) [vfat]
ide-cd 33856 0
cdrom 31648 0 [sr_mod ide-cd]
tuner 11744 1 (autoclean)
tvaudio 15068 0 (autoclean) (unused)
bttv 78496 0
videodev 7872 2 [bttv]
i2c-algo-bit 9064 1 [bttv]
i2c-core 21192 0 [tuner tvaudio bttv i2c-algo-bit]
soundcore 6276 0 [i810_audio bttv]
ide-scsi 11280 0
nvidia 1672832 10
usb-storage 72952 0 (unused)
sd_mod 13100 0 (unused)
scsi_mod 103284 3 [sr_mod ide-scsi usb-storage sd_mod]
ehci-hcd 18568 0 (unused)
usb-ohci 20584 0 (unused)
usbcore 72992 1 [usb-storage ehci-hcd usb-ohci]
rtc 8060 0 (autoclean)
ext3 59916 2
jbd 38972 2 [ext3]

-----------------------------------------

the full text of dmesg (when i reboot the system with the camera plugged in and turned on) is:

Linux version 2.4.21-0.13mdk (flepied@bi.mandrakesoft.com) (gcc version 3.2.2 (Mandrake Linux 9.1 3.2.2-3mdk)) #1 Fri Mar 14 15:08:06 EST 2003
BIOS-provided physical RAM map:
BIOS-e820: 0000000000000000 - 000000000009fc00 (usable)
BIOS-e820: 000000000009fc00 - 00000000000a0000 (reserved)
BIOS-e820: 00000000000f0000 - 0000000000100000 (reserved)
BIOS-e820: 0000000000100000 - 000000001fff0000 (usable)
BIOS-e820: 000000001fff0000 - 000000001fff3000 (ACPI NVS)
BIOS-e820: 000000001fff3000 - 0000000020000000 (ACPI data)
BIOS-e820: 00000000fec00000 - 00000000fec01000 (reserved)
BIOS-e820: 00000000fee00000 - 00000000fee01000 (reserved)
BIOS-e820: 00000000ffff0000 - 0000000100000000 (reserved)
511MB LOWMEM available.
ACPI: have wakeup address 0xc0001000
On node 0 totalpages: 131056
zone(0): 4096 pages.
zone(1): 126960 pages.
zone(2): 0 pages.
Kernel command line: auto BOOT_IMAGE=linux ro root=305 quiet devfs=mount hdd=ide-scsi acpi=off
ide_setup: hdd=ide-scsi
Found and enabled local APIC!
Initializing CPU#0
Detected 1837.499 MHz processor.
Console: colour dummy device 80x25
Calibrating delay loop... 3670.01 BogoMIPS
Memory: 515092k/524224k available (1410k kernel code, 8744k reserved, 1118k data, 136k init, 0k highmem)
Dentry cache hash table entries: 65536 (order: 7, 524288 bytes)
Inode cache hash table entries: 32768 (order: 6, 262144 bytes)
Mount cache hash table entries: 512 (order: 0, 4096 bytes)
Buffer-cache hash table entries: 32768 (order: 5, 131072 bytes)
Page-cache hash table entries: 131072 (order: 7, 524288 bytes)
CPU: L1 I Cache: 64K (64 bytes/line), D cache 64K (64 bytes/line)
CPU: L2 Cache: 512K (64 bytes/line)
Intel machine check architecture supported.
Intel machine check reporting enabled on CPU#0.
CPU: After generic, caps: 0383fbff c1c3fbff 00000000 00000000
CPU: Common caps: 0383fbff c1c3fbff 00000000 00000000
CPU: AMD Athlon(tm) XP 2500+ stepping 00
Enabling fast FPU save and restore... done.
Enabling unmasked SIMD FPU exception support... done.
Checking 'hlt' instruction... OK.
POSIX conformance testing by UNIFIX
enabled ExtINT on CPU#0
ESR value before enabling vector: 00000000
ESR value after enabling vector: 00000000
Using local APIC timer interrupts.
calibrating APIC timer ...
..... CPU clock speed is 1837.5311 MHz.
..... host bus clock speed is 334.0966 MHz.
cpu: 0, clocks: 3340966, slice: 1670483
CPU0<T0:3340960,T1:1670464,D:13,S:1670483,C:3340966>
mtrr: v1.40 (20010327) Richard Gooch (rgooch@atnf.csiro.au)
mtrr: detected mtrr type: Intel
ACPI: Subsystem revision 20030122
ACPI: Disabled via command line (acpi=off)
PCI: PCI BIOS revision 2.10 entry at 0xfb590, last bus=3
PCI: Using configuration type 1
PCI: Probing PCI hardware
PCI: ACPI tables contain no PCI IRQ routing entries
PCI: Probing PCI hardware (bus 00)
PCI: Using IRQ router default [10de/01e0] at 00:00.0
isapnp: Scanning for PnP cards...
isapnp: No Plug & Play device found
Linux NET4.0 for Linux 2.4
Based upon Swansea University Computer Society NET3.039
Initializing RT netlink socket
apm: BIOS version 1.2 Flags 0x07 (Driver version 1.16)
Starting kswapd
VFS: Disk quotas vdquot_6.5.1
devfs: v1.12c (20020818) Richard Gooch (rgooch@atnf.csiro.au)
devfs: boot_options: 0x1
vesafb: framebuffer at 0xc8000000, mapped to 0xe0800000, size 65536k
vesafb: mode is 800x600x16, linelength=1600, pages=2
vesafb: protected mode interface info at c000:e8a0
vesafb: scrolling: redraw
vesafb: directcolor: size=0:5:6:5, shift=0:11:5:0
Looking for splash picture.... found (800x600, 25593 bytes).
Console: switching to colour frame buffer device 80x16
fb0: VESA VGA frame buffer device
pty: 256 Unix98 ptys configured
Serial driver version 5.05c (2001-07-08) with HUB-6 MANY_PORTS MULTIPORT SHARE_IRQ SERIAL_PCI ISAPNP enabled
ttyS00 at 0x03f8 (irq = 4) is a 16550A
ttyS01 at 0x02f8 (irq = 3) is a 16550A
RAMDISK driver initialized: 16 RAM disks of 32000K size 1024 blocksize
Uniform Multi-Platform E-IDE driver Revision: 7.00beta-2.4
ide: Assuming 33MHz system bus speed for PIO modes; override with idebus=xx
NFORCE2: IDE controller at PCI slot 00:09.0
NFORCE2: chipset revision 162
NFORCE2: not 100% native mode: will probe irqs later
ide0: BM-DMA at 0xf000-0xf007, BIOS settings: hdaMA, hdbMA
ide1: BM-DMA at 0xf008-0xf00f, BIOS settings: hdcMA, hddMA
hda: Maxtor 6Y080P0, ATA DISK drive
blk: queue c03cb420, I/O limit 4095Mb (mask 0xffffffff)
hdc: SONY CD-ROM CDU5221, ATAPI CD/DVD-ROM drive
hdd: Hewlett-Packard CD-Writer Plus 9300, ATAPI CD/DVD-ROM drive
ide0 at 0x1f0-0x1f7,0x3f6 on irq 14
ide1 at 0x170-0x177,0x376 on irq 15
hda: host protected area => 1
hda: 160086528 sectors (81964 MB) w/7936KiB Cache, CHS=9964/255/63, UDMA(33)
Partition check:
/dev/ide/host0/bus0/target0/lun0: p1 p2 < p5 p6 p7 >
md: md driver 0.90.0 MAX_MD_DEVS=256, MD_SB_DISKS=27
md: Autodetecting RAID arrays.
md: autorun ...
md: ... autorun DONE.
NET4: Linux TCP/IP 1.0 for NET4.0
IP Protocols: ICMP, UDP, TCP, IGMP
IP: routing cache hash table of 4096 buckets, 32Kbytes
TCP: Hash tables configured (established 32768 bind 65536)
Linux IP multicast router 0.06 plus PIM-SM
NET4: Unix domain sockets 1.0/SMP for Linux NET4.0.
RAMDISK: Compressed image found at block 0
Freeing initrd memory: 108k freed
VFS: Mounted root (ext2 filesystem).
Mounted devfs on /dev
Journalled Block Device driver loaded
kjournald starting. Commit interval 5 seconds
EXT3-fs: mounted filesystem with ordered data mode.
Mounted devfs on /dev
Freeing unused kernel memory: 136k freed
Real Time Clock Driver v1.10e
usb.c: registered new driver usbdevfs
usb.c: registered new driver hub
PCI: Setting latency timer of device 00:02.0 to 64
usb-ohci.c: USB OHCI at membase 0xe4932000, IRQ 10
usb-ohci.c: usb-00:02.0, PCI device 10de:0067 (nVidia Corporation)
usb.c: new USB bus registered, assigned bus number 1
hub.c: USB hub found
hub.c: 3 ports detected
PCI: Setting latency timer of device 00:02.1 to 64
usb-ohci.c: USB OHCI at membase 0xe4934000, IRQ 10
usb-ohci.c: usb-00:02.1, PCI device 10de:0067 (nVidia Corporation)
usb.c: new USB bus registered, assigned bus number 2
hub.c: USB hub found
hub.c: 3 ports detected
PCI: Setting latency timer of device 00:02.2 to 64
ehci-hcd 00:02.2: PCI device 10de:0068 (nVidia Corporation)
ehci-hcd 00:02.2: irq 11, pci mem e495e000
usb.c: new USB bus registered, assigned bus number 3
ehci-hcd 00:02.2: USB 2.0 enabled, EHCI 1.00, driver 2002-Dec-20
hub.c: USB hub found
hub.c: 6 ports detected
usbdevfs: remount parameter error
EXT3 FS 2.4-0.9.19, 19 August 2002 on ide0(3,5), internal journal
Adding Swap: 1076312k swap-space (priority -1)
hub.c: new USB device 00:02.1-2, assigned address 2
usb.c: USB device 2 (vend/prod 0x4a9/0x3084) is not claimed by any active driver.
SCSI subsystem driver Revision: 1.00
Initializing USB Mass Storage driver...
usb.c: registered new driver usb-storage
USB Mass Storage support registered.
0: nvidia: loading NVIDIA Linux x86 nvidia.o Kernel Module 1.0-4363 Sat Apr 19 17:46:46 PDT 2003
scsi0 : SCSI host adapter emulation for IDE ATAPI devices
Vendor: HP Model: CD-Writer+ 9300 Rev: 1.0b
Type: CD-ROM ANSI SCSI revision: 02
i2c-core.o: i2c core module version 2.7.0 (20021208)
i2c-algo-bit.o: i2c bit algorithm module version 2.7.0 (20021208)
Linux video capture interface: v1.00
bttv: driver version 0.7.100 loaded
bttv: using 4 buffers with 2080k (8320k total) for capture
bttv: Host bridge is PCI device 10de:01e0 (nVidia Corporation)
bttv: Bt8xx card found (0).
bttv0: Bt878 (rev 2) at 01:0c.0, irq: 5, latency: 32, mmio: 0xd8000000
bttv0: detected: Hauppauge WinTV [card=10], PCI subsystem ID is 0070:13eb
bttv0: using: BT878(Hauppauge (bt878)) [card=10,autodetected]
bttv0: Hauppauge/Voodoo msp34xx: reset line init [5]
bttv0: Hauppauge eeprom: model=38101, tuner=Philips FI1236 MK2 (2), radio=no
bttv0: using tuner=2
bttv0: i2c: checking for MSP34xx @ 0x80... not found
bttv0: i2c: checking for TDA9875 @ 0xb0... not found
bttv0: i2c: checking for TDA7432 @ 0x8a... not found
tvaudio: TV audio decoder + audio/video mux driver
tvaudio: known chips: tda9840,tda9873h,tda9874h/a,tda9850,tda9855,tea6300,tea6420,tda8425,pic16c54 (PV951)
tuner: probing bt848 #0 i2c adapter [id=0x10005]
tuner: chip found @ 0xc2
tuner: type set to 2 (Philips NTSC (FI1236,FM1236 and compatibles))
bttv0: i2c attach [client=Philips NTSC (FI1236,FM1236 and ,ok]
bttv0: PLL: 28636363 => 35468950 ... ok
bttv0: registered device video0
bttv0: registered device vbi0
hdc: ATAPI 40X CD-ROM drive, 128kB Cache, UDMA(33)
Uniform CD-ROM driver Revision: 3.12
kjournald starting. Commit interval 5 seconds
EXT3 FS 2.4-0.9.19, 19 August 2002 on ide0(3,6), internal journal
EXT3-fs: mounted filesystem with ordered data mode.
MSDOS FS: IO charset iso8859-1
MSDOS FS: Using codepage 850
ohci1394: $Rev: 693 $ Ben Collins <bcollins@debian.org>
PCI: Setting latency timer of device 00:0d.0 to 64
ohci1394_0: OHCI-1394 1.1 (PCI): IRQ=[5] MMIO=[de084000-de0847ff] Max Packet=[2048]
ieee1394: SelfID completion called outside of bus reset!
3Com 3c90x Ethernet Driver Version 1.0.6 2002 <linux_drivers@3com.com>
inserting floppy driver for 2.4.21-0.13mdk
Floppy drive(s): fd0 is 1.44M
FDC 0 is a post-1991 82077
Attached scsi CD-ROM sr0 at scsi0, channel 0, id 0, lun 0
sr0: scsi3-mmc drive: 32x/32x writer cd/rw xa/form2 cdda tray
Installing knfsd (copyright (C) 1996 okir@monad.swb.de).
Intel 810 + AC97 Audio, version 0.24, 15:29:58 Mar 14 2003
PCI: Setting latency timer of device 00:06.0 to 64
i810: NVIDIA nForce Audio found at IO 0xb400 and 0xb000, MEM 0x0000 and 0x0000, IRQ 10
i810_audio: Audio Controller supports 6 channels.
i810_audio: Defaulting to base 2 channel mode.
i810_audio: Resetting connection 0
ac97_codec: AC97 Audio codec, id: ALG32 (ALC650)
i810_audio: AC'97 codec 0, new EID value = 0x05c7
i810_audio: AC'97 codec 0, DAC map configured, total channels = 6
Splash status on console 0 changed to off
ide-floppy driver 0.99.newide
usb.c: USB disconnect on device 00:02.1-2 address 2
hub.c: new USB device 00:02.1-2, assigned address 3
usb.c: USB device 3 (vend/prod 0x4a9/0x3084) is not claimed by any active driver.
usb.c: USB disconnect on device 00:02.1-2 address 3
spurious 8259A interrupt: IRQ7.
hub.c: new USB device 00:02.1-2, assigned address 4
usb.c: USB device 4 (vend/prod 0x4a9/0x3084) is not claimed by any active driver.
usb.c: USB disconnect on device 00:02.1-2 address 4
hub.c: new USB device 00:02.1-2, assigned address 5
usb.c: USB device 5 (vend/prod 0x4a9/0x3084) is not claimed by any active driver.
usb.c: USB disconnect on device 00:02.1-2 address 5

[ camera turned on and off a few times after boot ]

------------------------------------------------------

it seems the key is that "USB device 5 (vend/prod 0x4a9/0x3084) is not claimed by any active driver."

any thoughts?
 
Old 10-04-2003, 01:23 PM   #2
leipper
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Registered: Sep 2003
Distribution: RH9
Posts: 18

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Susan Macchia wrote a very nice item in March 2003 on "Using Multi-Card Flash Readers" - For your suggestion, the ideas on the sg utils ( http://www.torque.net/sg/index.html#...nd%20sg3_utils ) could help you find out who is doing what where.

Multi-card just means mounting 4 sub devices rather than one main (I think) so the same general precepts should apply

It does appear that you have the proper modules loaded.

cdrecord -scanbus
will tell you what bus the device is on

I don't know if you need to enter command like
echo "scsi add-single-device 0 0 0 0" > /proc/scsi/scsi
but it sounds reasonable. I wish I new more about why, though.

sg_scan -i
Will tell what devices are on scsi, they should match whats in /proc/scsi/scsi.

sg_map
Shows the mappings of devices. This will help you figure out which device name to use when mounting.

I save the doc and not the link but you should be able to find it with a net search. - Linux Step by Step I think.

It really gets confusing when I try to mount the 6 in 1 reader and an external usb drive in different orders and then try to figure out who mounts where. I have a lot to learn.
 
Old 10-04-2003, 01:42 PM   #3
leiavoia
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sg_can and sg_map are not recognised on my system.

-----------------------------------

usbview shows that a "Canon Digital Camera" is connected to the root hub when it gets turned on.

-----------------------------------

lsusb outputs:

Bus 003 Device 001: ID 0000:0000
Bus 002 Device 001: ID 0000:0000
Bus 002 Device 021: ID 04a9:3084 Canon Inc.
Bus 001 Device 001: ID 0000:0000

so it does pick it up

------------------------------------

i'm not sure where it came from, but i also seem to have a /dev/scd1 which points to

/dev/scsi/host1/bus0/target0/lun0/generic

trying to mount it to /mnt/cam outputs:

mount: no medium found

------------------------------------

a similar output comes from cdrecord -scanbus

Cdrecord 2.0 (i586-mandrake-linux-gnu) Copyright (C) 1995-2002 Jörg Schilling
Using libscg version 'schily-0.7'
scsibus0:
0,0,0 0) 'HP ' 'CD-Writer+ 9300 ' '1.0b' Removable CD-ROM
0,1,0 1) *
0,2,0 2) *
0,3,0 3) *
0,4,0 4) *
0,5,0 5) *
0,6,0 6) *
0,7,0 7) *
scsibus1:
1,0,0 100) '' '' '' Removable not present Disk
1,1,0 101) *
1,2,0 102) *
1,3,0 103) *
1,4,0 104) *
1,5,0 105) *
1,6,0 106) *
1,7,0 107) *
scsibus2:
2,0,0 200) '' '' '' Removable not present Disk
2,1,0 201) *
2,2,0 202) *
2,3,0 203) *
2,4,0 204) *
2,5,0 205) *
2,6,0 206) *
2,7,0 207) *


BUT THERE IS A COMPACT FLASH CARD IN THE CAMERA. i did the same thing with a lexar usb flash card reader - same thing - it says it's not there. i tried to format the card in the camera and on the computer as well. still says it is not present.

--------------------------------------

any other thoughts? this is very frustrating.

Last edited by leiavoia; 10-04-2003 at 02:21 PM.
 
Old 10-04-2003, 05:30 PM   #4
leipper
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Registered: Sep 2003
Distribution: RH9
Posts: 18

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Quote:
sg_can and sg_map are not recognised on my system
that is why I provided a link to where you can find them.

It is a diagnostic utility and may or may not help depending upon how much diagnosing you are into and whether you can figure out what the output is saying.

I often find trying to mount by trial and error is a way to relive frustration and maybe hit gold.

Assuming /mnt/temp exists as a directory and is currently unattached,

mount /dev/sda1 /mnt/temp

work? no, got error messages

mount /dev/sdb1 /mnt/temp

work? no

mount /dev/sdc1 /mnt/temp

etc. What works often depends upon what port the device is plugged into.

sometimes I feel like one of those monkeys involved in typing the Bible when it comes to figuring out linux hassles.
 
Old 10-04-2003, 05:45 PM   #5
leiavoia
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i've figured out that Mandrake 9.1 will *create* /dev/sda1 when it sees a USB card reader plugged in. It also dynamcially creates /mnt/removable in fstab at the same time.

however, if i plug the camera in directly, it does not recognise it as a mass-storage device. pehaps it is because the camera is brand new (just released last week).

so... is there any way to get it to recognise my particular camera as a mass storage device?
 
Old 10-14-2003, 03:51 PM   #6
ksun
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Forgive me if I am spouting incorrect info, but I have generally found the following to be the case: Either your camera shows up as a mass storage device (like my sony dcr-pc9) or you have to use the digital camera tools to "extract" the images from it.

If you are like me it can be used as a storage device, but I have to mount the /dev/sda1 as -t vfat after kudzu mounts it as fat. I have other problems with camera's and mass storage devices in linux, but that is for another thread.
 
Old 12-31-2003, 09:25 PM   #7
TigerLeo
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Quote:
Originally posted by leiavoia
i've figured out that Mandrake 9.1 will *create* /dev/sda1 when it sees a USB card reader plugged in. It also dynamcially creates /mnt/removable in fstab at the same time.

however, if i plug the camera in directly, it does not recognise it as a mass-storage device. pehaps it is because the camera is brand new (just released last week).

so... is there any way to get it to recognise my particular camera as a mass storage device?
leiavoia: this maybe helpfull:
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...hreadid=130254
 
Old 02-26-2004, 10:43 AM   #8
secretlydead
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Location: Qingdao, China
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hey.

i've got a no name digital camera. i believe it's on the scsi; i've found it buried deep in the directory.

i tried to mount it to /mnt/camera using mount -t vfat ./<name> /mnt/camera, and this is the message it gives me:

wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on <name>, or too many mounted file systems.


i'm pretty sure the thing is on ./<name> because when i unplug the camera and try the mount command, it tells me that it cannot find the device.

i'm wondering if there's a way to probe the fs type.
 
Old 02-26-2004, 11:26 AM   #9
JaseP
Senior Member
 
Registered: Jun 2002
Location: Eastern PA, USA
Distribution: K/Ubuntu 18.04-14.04, Scientific Linux 6.3-6.4, Android-x86, Pretty much all distros at one point...
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I don't think it's a filesystem problem...

These kind of errors crop up when all the scsi services are not completely installed in the system. My guess is that you need to install more of the scsi emulation libraries to get the thing to recognize.

Also, many cameras have the ability to switch them from scsi emulation mass storage device to a PTP camera device. If your camera is set to be a PTP device then you probably won't be able to pull the images off it like it was a scsi device. However, the scsi emulation might want to make the camera out to be a mass storage device...
 
Old 02-26-2004, 08:37 PM   #10
secretlydead
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where do i get these SCSI emulation libraries?
 
Old 02-26-2004, 08:56 PM   #11
michael@actrix
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I have a Canon A80 - like another poster said, cameras don't necessarily turn up as storage devices - and my Canon doesn't, so maybe yours is the same. For non storage accessible cameras you have to use utils like gphoto2:
http://www.gphoto.org/
GUI interfaces to gphoto2 are available, and it also integrates into Konqueror:
http://www.thekompany.com/projects/gphoto/

BTW - the normal unenhanced konqueror also knows how to get at the EXIF data tags commonly found in digital photos - just hover over an image
 
Old 02-27-2004, 05:17 PM   #12
JaseP
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Quote:
Originally posted by secretlydead
where do i get these SCSI emulation libraries?
They should come with your distro...
 
  


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/dev/sda and /dev/sda1 disappeared using sii3112A striderstrahan Linux - Software 0 09-16-2004 05:00 AM
USB Compact flash card reader hotplug creates /dev/sda but no /dev/sda1 -Mandrake 9.1 bibinono Linux - Hardware 2 08-11-2003 09:37 AM

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