And, here are a few screenshots showing the impact on system performance while trying to launch a Chromium window. The first picture is before launch, the second picture is during the considerable time I spent waiting for the default page to load, and the third image is after I gave up waiting and closed the browser. Pay particular attention to the CPU graph at lower right, next to the system clock

Before:
https://i.imgur.com/VZDhEhJ.png


During:
https://i.imgur.com/cLtwFiL.png


After:
https://i.imgur.com/UJoh8CA.png

When you remaster Knoppix are you deleting a bunch of programs that you'll never need or maybe changing some defaults?
Also is the remaster done from the install knoppix button?

Have you tried looking at every running process with the program called htop?
Maybe there's a better program but htop run in the terminal shows a lot of running processes with their CPU and memory usage.

This is also like two or more programs are fighting for the same territory.

I probably should delete a bunch of the games that I will never use, just to get more space available under the 4 gig barrier, that I could put to better use.

Now that I have a system stable enough to run for 3+ hours (hooray!!) I think I'm starting to get some perspective on the problem.

Not that it's "right"....not that it is the kind of system I would enjoy using on an on going basis, but here is what I think it is.

1. You have to allow system activity to die down between requests. For example if I close Chromium, I gotta wait a minute or so for the activity light on the USB drive to settle down, before I launch Gimp...just as an example. Because if I don't, they compete with one another for control of the USB bus. So "multi Tasking" as I have become used to it...is dead. (funny this problem does not exist in a non-overlay install)

I'm not sure that a USB 3.x spec would be sufficiently faster to make the needed significant improvement, but it will likely gnaw at me now,.. just wondering if it would...until I go out and buy a USB 3 machine just to end the misery.


2. Noticing now that the basic knoppix install is still in an iso 9660 format, but the overlay is fat32, begs the question of how the update status for files is communicated? There have got to be flags, and there has got to be a manifest file that the system can check...just to verify the system's current state. For example, if there is a desktop background image in /mnt/knoppix.....but I copy some other image into that folder "on the fly" without remastering.....I'm pretty sure that file isn't going into the iso 9660 file system, it's getting written into the overlay space, and then some pointer has to serve as reference to allow the system to know where the actual destination of the file is sitting.

And the system is having to do this FOR EVERY CHANGE YOU MAKE.....files....bookmarks....you name it.

It's very similar to what used to be called a fragmented file.....for every addition you make. (seems crazy, don't it?)

It amounts to a lot of additional overhead...both reading and writing.

SO, I THINK that is what the problem is...that's my theory. I'm not ready to say [SOLVED] on this one yet, not by a long shot... until I see someone with actual expertise with the program acknowledge that is the reason.

But it's crazy, with this overlay system as it is now.... from the time I select knoppix as the system I want to boot, until I have a usable desktop, is 2 minutes and 54 seconds

From the time I launch Chromium until I have the complete browser in front of me ready to click, is 2 minutes and 12 seconds. Fortunately, that's only the first time I launch it after a system boot. Thereafter when I relaunch it, it up and ready to go in just seconds.

My guess is that's because it's loading from cache and not from the USB drive.


So, unless I expect any kind of reasonable productivity, ....I'm in good shape..


Still, I can't believe this is not documented. The lack of responsiveness just screams at the user "you've done something terribly wrong with your install" and makes you want to re-format and start over. However, inspite of what normally should be obvious, today I just was feeling kinda sadistic and decided to watch the system blow it's self up....only to be surprized that despite the insane slowness,..it can work. Provided you don't mind waiting for 'paint to dry'....

So, it seems there is an unavoidable trade-off....persistence vs productivity "choose only one".

I just found this very interesting article on Knoppix Data overlay for Knoppix 8.2.
You may have read it already. I've never seen it in my searching data overly until now.
http://students.engr.scu.edu/~sschae...pix/index.html
This guy apparently keeps up one of the linux kernels.

I think that version 8.2 worked like you'd expect it to.
I use to use Knoppix on my HD like it were my main OS but one version I never could get sound working on Firefox for youtube so I backed off using it a bit. I could use chrome but it would sometimes lock up and crash.

I love the zoom in Compiz and have never seen its equal. Do you leave compiz or trade it in for Open box or another window manager?

I like Compiz myself and do like open box on Arch and Ubuntu but wouldn't trade Compiz for it.
I like how you can edit its menu's and create your on keyboard shortcuts.

1 members found this post helpful.

No, I had not seen that before...much appreciated

Have you found the zoom feature in Knoppix that comes with compiz? If not
Pull up a web page and hit the super key and the right down arrow.😀

Yeah, I have a tendency to find the zoom feature when I'm not really looking for it. And the first several times had frustration finding how to make the zoom go away.

I'm not really thrilled with the way moving my cursor over to the far upper right hand corner causes all the open windows to morph into a scaled down size that is unusable, either. I'm still trying to figure out any scenario where that would actually be useful.


Interesting how the guy in the article you linked to makes no mention whatsoever of any kind of performance "hit" from deploying the overlay .

I was sure that my "fragmented file" analogy had merit. But with his lack of mention, I guess that I am back to believing that 8.6.1 is somehow "broken", and those in the know just don't feel like talking about it?

I think ts definitely an 8.6 thing.
I have seen any knoppix live with persistence overwhelmingly max out the CPU to do a small task.

But yeah that right top corner mouse thing is handy with a lot of windows open. You can quickly see them all at once and click the one you want.
You can turn it off in Compiz.
I actually find myself looking for it in Ubuntu, Mint, Puppy Arch and Windows 10 but it's never there.��

So what's the deal you get Knoppix installed on the 1st USB and add and delete things you want and dont want, then install that to your 2nd USB and it stays like you left it?

After you get a virgin KNOPPIX DVD booted, you can import or create new.. all the bookmarks you want for chromium, firefox, and Konkeror...and even go to your frequently visited places like this, and actually log on and your password will be saved. (I usually use google chrome's "Export Bookmarks" function to create a Bookmarks.html file, from a system that I have been using regularly, and keep it handy on a fixed physical drive that I know I can access easily, to import into the knoppix set up)

You can also obtain plug-ins and themes for chromium and firefox.....and even go into applications such as gimp and edit preferences to select settings that you prefer as a default.....

Then, using flash-install to set up your first USB Flash drive...if you select the yes option to "Would you like to remaster your system?"...all of the above changes will be incorporated into the default system you create.

Then, if you still want to modify the desktop back ground image used.....boot from that USB drive you just made, and rename the graphic you want to use as "background.jpg". Put that file into the mnt-system/KNOPPIX directory, replacing the file already there by the same name.


You can also do the same thing for the boot splash screen by taking the graphic of your choice and renaming it "splash_background.png" and copying it to the /usr/share/compiz/splash/images folder using the sudo cp -i splash_background.png /usr/share/compiz/splash/images command fromm whatever directory you have your desired graphic in...and then select "yes" when it prompts you that a file by that name already exists.

Then create your second generation USB flash drive, just as before...making sure to specify "yes" when asked if you wish to remaster.

And then all your changes in basic set up will become defaults.

But, each time you remaster your system, the resulting USB will have additional " KNOPPIX4 KNOPPIX5 KNOPPIX6..." directories created in root.

As I recall I think that KNOPPIX thru KNOPPIX3 are standard fare with the default install, but each time you remaster a new generation from a previous one, the additional KNOPPIX* directories start appearing.

Hope that was what you were curious about

There is also a file named "splash_logo.png" located in the /usr/share/compiz/splash/images directory. this is where the superimposed word "COMPIZ" shown over the boot splash screen originates. This file can be edited to say whatever you want it to say as well, but be sure whatever editor you use supports transparency. and then copy into the same directory as explained above.

I found that I have 8.6.0 copied over to my hard drive, booting with grub2 from Ubuntu's grub.cfg put in their of course by sudo gedit /etc/grub.d/40_custom and then running sudo update-grub to get it into grub.cfg.
Anyhow that works very fast even with knoppix-data.img loaded. I can open up all kinds of things have 10 tabs on firefox, several other files open and my CPU bar runs about 40%.

So I thought well if this one is working maybe its an 8.6.1 thing, so I ran the 8.6.0 flash-knoppix on my USB and used the data overlay plus remaster, booted into it and there it is again. Its so slow its not even usable. I never did get it to load firefox after about 30 minutes of being booted. It did save my panel settings but not my background. I didn't have it renamed as you suggest.

I'd say firefox on that install is out of date, 8.6.0 is a 2019 Knoppix version. Before that I had 8.2 on HD and its the one that firefox had no sound for Youtube Im pretty sure. When I upgrade Knoppix on my hd I always rename the old KNOPPIX folder to like 8.2PIXKNOPP so the latest will not boot the wrong version and I can easily go back if things don't work.
I do the same for isolinux with something like 8.2isolinux.

The problem with having KNOPPIX on Hard drive is that a Knoppix USB will boot the HD KNOPPIX every time and not load the one in the USB. So I have to rename it 1st on HD to boot the USB which is a bit of a pain. I can rename it from running knoppix with the mv KNOPPIX 8.6.1PIXKNOP or I can rename it from Ubuntu very easy then boot the USB.

The 8.6.1 that I created manually is actually usable after CPU usage settles down.
Plus with grub2 it boots EFI or legacy and I have the noimage option at boot up that doesn't seem to work in syslinux.

Hey ViableAlternative, when you do a remaster do you boot with the data overlay working? I couldn't imagine having to wait all the extra time to get flash knoppix finished with data overlay working.
I tried a couple times to run flash-knoppix from the booted .iso and that seemed to fail for some reason not sure why.

BTW this menuentry will boot the knoppix iso if you've never tried it. I found it at Ubuntu Iso boot menu examples.
Knoppix is one I could never get to boot the iso trying to decipher my own menuentry.

menuentry "Knoppix 8.6.1 DVD ISO" {
set iso_path="/iso/knoppix8.6.1.iso"
loopback loop (hd0,gpt2)$iso_path
echo "Loading linux"
linux (loop)/boot/isolinux/linux64 bootfrom=/dev/sda2$iso_path lang=en apm=power-off initrd=minirt.gz nomce hpsa.hpsa_allow_any=1 loglevel=1
echo "Loading minirt"
initrd (loop)/boot/isolinux/minirt.gz
}

I have the 8.6.1.iso image inside a folder named iso at the root of my Ubuntu /dev/sda2 install like this /iso/knoppix8.6.1.iso
and can boot the .iso by adding menuentry to grub.cfg

No I've not tried to remaster from any system running the overlay, as you mention, it sounds like a nightmare.

Keep in mind that over the past year, ALL my attempted installs using the overlay have been so problematic that within an hour I resigned myself that I had somehow screwed up and was reformatting, and re-installing.

Only this past weekend did I get the "self destructive" urge to watch the crippled system limp along, and see that the system with overlay could function, if one has hours to spend watching what should take minutes to accomplish.

So, your 'knoppix w/overlay' install to HD works well? That's good to know. Although personally that's not a big draw for me. Several people are doing it....perhaps for the very reason we are discussing?

To me, the main appeal is having my system, with my browsers, my settings, applications with my preferences and support files... etc right on my keychain.....being able to achieve persistence on top of that, would be a tremendous improvement (something to look forward to)....but up to now I've been forced to find ways to make a 'read-only' USB install work. So, I keep a second flash drive to save any files to, and maintain a *.txt file on it that I save URLs to. With the thought being that periodically I can remaster the system and incorporate those revisions into the base system.


I know what you are saying about browsers not working right in older versions of knoppix...my current journey started with a version of knoppix 7.x that I had on CD.... mostly for use as an emergency backup/recovery tool for my windows system (windows came originally on the machine when I bought it)

But about a year ago I noticed that the knoppix 7.x browsers were not working well with sites that employed HTML 5.....So. seeking an update, I find knoppix 8.6.1 and discovered that solved all my browser woes.....but never being able to leave well-enough alone, decided to take it a step further, and try the flash-knoppix route...mostly as an amusement.....and got hooked.

During the past year I'd say that 99% of my computer use has been knoppix, and only 1% windows. And,..outside of the absence of persistence, my experiences have been very positive. I'd love to crack that last nut and get persistence working productively on a USB.

But, until the Knopper camp comes forward and announces that the 8.6.1 "bug" has been fixed, or some Linux guru figuers out what I have been doing wrong.....I am stuck where I am, I guess.


I guess the choices available to me are between portability, performance, and persistence.....(pick any two).
If I expect performance AND persistence...then an install of one of the standard Linux distributions to hard drive is likely my best alternative ...losing the portability. And if I opt to maintain portability, then I have a hard choice between performance and persistence.


Underneath it all, I guess I must give the knoppix camp credit for being able to get persistence working on a USB stick in the first place. A nifty little accomplishment in it's own rite. Even if only somewhat of a novelty.

With your HD experiences, it makes me even more suspect that the USB buss itself is the culprit

I guess in retrospect, I was my own worst enemy with the overlay installations. With my thinking "oh boy, this Flash installation has persistence", so as soon as I would get the stick booted, I was trying-out the ability to make changes. (manually) adding bookmarks, creating new files, etc...all while the freshly booted system was still "calming down" from the boot process. (Assuming the USB buss is the culprit, I feel whole heartedly that the failure to document this "nature of the beast" operating characteristic is a tremendous oversight from the creators)

Making for a rather nasty traffic jam.

Ive learned not to hit a button but once and wait for it a minute or two.

I've been using knoppix flash drives since 5.1 v but have never seen them slow at all until knoppix overlay came about. This slowness would drive one madd.
I may try one with 5.1 Knoppix just for the heck of it.


How can I swap that Penguine cd wrapper splash out for a really good looking Penguin?