KDE is European
KDE, in my experience, is more likely to have documentation that requires a greater amount of pre existing Linux knowledge than Gnome. I find that Americans are more customer oriented than Europeans, to include documentation.

Four things to understand:
1) The purpose of documentation is to teach. To that end, it would stand to reason that teachers with a background in Linux would produce the best documentation. Having a knowledge of teaching completely changes how one views documentation. Quality documentation has certain characteristics. Ubuntu is known for quality documentation, and so is Opensuse, to a lesser degree. Ubuntu uses Gnome and our thread has been about: Gnome vs KDE, when does simplicity end and too Spartan to be useful begin? and when does redundancy of applications and a myriad of apps go from being performance enhancing to excessive bloat? This means that differences between Gnome's documentation and the documentation of KDE are relevant.

2) Documentation can determine the quality of one's Desktop and Distro experience. I went into some degree of trouble to identify characteristics of good documentation and bad documentation. Next I showed the link between quality documentation and Distro and desktop popularity. This means that for most people, documentation is important in determining which is the preferred desktop (Gnome or KDE) or distro.

3) I did not want to say this is my opinion without being able to back it up because some Linux Gurus take offense to the criticism of documentation, no matter how polite the criticism. Therefore, I alluded to education to eliminate frivolous, passion based arguments against my position, and to show the relevance of knowing how elements of teaching apply to the identification and the production of quality documentation.

4) Another reason to write was to provide an alternative method of looking at documentation. Some people google documentation, then use it and then get stuck, unable to use it effectively. By identifying elements of good documentation and elements of bad documetation, it's my hope that I can help at least one person to identify good documentation, so that they can avoid using bad documentation and searching forums for answers etc.

I agree. A language degree is not the same as a degree in Education administration or teaching. However, a degree in Education administration or teaching would improve the quality of documetation because documentation is a teaching tool.
Do you not think that a professor or an instructor with an extensive background in Linux who teaches and writes professionally would documentation that is better than average? Of course they would. Robert Shingledecker, Tinycore Linux's founder, said that Linux gurus are not the best documentation writers, so I am not alone in what I say. The point is simple. Excellent documentation is generated by those who have teaching skills, even if those skills are intuitive and not learned. There are probalby many Linux Distros that would be more popular if they had better documentation. This all ties into why the distros with the best documentation are the most popular. All that has been said heretofore confirms why Gnome is more popular than KDE in America, unless po;;s have changed reason and my Alan Cox quote is outdated.

That's a very odd statement to make in a thread about desktops.

Your contention that most American Linux users would use Gnome is questionable. In fact, at least one American-based distro, (which I have been using since 1999) stopped packaging Gnome in 2005, for all of it's difficulties. For some historical perspective, Here's an article, written by a fellow countryman of yours a little over 6 years ago.

Anyhow, sorry if my previous post offended you in any way, which it certainly seems to have done.

Yanfaun,

You mention (as a backup) that since GNOME is USA based, it's documentation is better, compared to KDE, which is "European" based. (that's the core line, in your long posts)

If find that nonsense. And here's why:

Where the project originates (geographically) doesn't mean anything nowadays.
Both projects, have developers, contributors etc etc, from all corners of the world. (volunteered, or payed, doesn't matter)

Thus, GNOME aswell KDE, have documentation writers from, yes, Europe too.
In that perspective, they are hybrid as to nationality, or worldpart.

It's not about WHERE someone is coming from, but the talent he/she has for what he/she stands for.
Besides that element, the other element is the senior of the team, who make the end descisions on what to include, and what not.
Both projects have different goals, visions and exercises.

So, to bluntly state that the Educational, teaching, documentation levels of europeans are lower compared to USA residents, is therefore utter nonsense. And thus as i stated before, FALSE.

You failed in your paragraph, i responded to earlier, to mention any creteria for your statement, nor did you explain anything on what you where trying to explain (motivation).
So, it's not that strange that i and someone else, points that out to you.
Nobody can mindread, so if you are so high skilled teacher/doc writer, you should have known you needed to include the creteria/argumentation of thought. And also you should have known, that people would react on what you write, not what you think (since we cannot read the mindset of someone by thought alone). Just as we don't have a "do what i want, not what i type" command inside any OS.

Furthermore, Europe is not a country, so pointing fingers to europeans, means ALL countries that make Europe.
and that is false too..

Last thing,
as i understood (although not 100% sure, since you are at times write in ackward cirles of motivations), you think the Ubuntu documentation is well done?
if so, did you know Ubuntu is a European based distribution? Based on "Isle of Men", which is in between Ireland and UK.
Just to point out to you (if i was understanding correctly), that mentioning Ubuntu in relationship to your motivation is going nowhere..

the same understanding i have with your mentioning of Debian OS.
But this time in the negative way (bad documentation) the so called "80ies style".
Did you know that Ian Murdoch (the founder) was born in germany (konstanz), but during the foundation of Debian OS (at the Purdue university) , he was already an official American resident.


peace :-)

First, nothing you've ever said has offended me. In fact, I respect all that you have posted. I was jesting. Second, in one of the previous post. If you live in America, you would know that everyone wants everything five minutes ago. I do not have time read what you've suggested. However, I will say two things. At Distrowatch.com, Ubuntu, Gnome Desktop, receives praise for its documentation; Kubuntu, a KDE desktop does not. I've maintained and will maintain that quality of documentation or the lack thereof can positively or negatively the popularity of a Desktop.
Sorry to hear that you feel this way. I was irked by the prospect of what awaited... no not your post.

Once again, you are Wrong. These are my exact words, taken from post # 76.

Quote, “KDE is European
KDE, in my experience, is more likely to have documentation that requires a greater amount of pre- existing Linux knowledge than Gnome. I find that Americans are more customer oriented than Europeans, to include documentation,” end quote.

You love to misrepresent everything that I say. This is why I said quote me, which you chose not to do.At least I provide links, see below. I cannot provide you with pictures, so maybe some links will help.

Click these link0, link1 and you will see that Ubuntu, a Gnome desktop, is and has been the most popular Distro for years. At the same site, click this link to read reviews bout KDE on Kubuntu Linux. Nowhere does it say that this Kubuntu or KDE has great documentation. Therefore, it's no surprise that it has 17% of the popularity of Gnome according to the same website. Click this link to read about reviews of KDE on Mepis Linux. From the immediately available information, Mepis does not appear to offer Gnome. Again, nowhere does it say that Mepis or KDE have good much less great documentation. Once again it's no surprise that Mepis (KDE) only enjoys 30% of the popularity of Ubuntu, which runs Gnome. As I said, quality of documentation can determine a Desktop's appeal, usefulness and popularity.
Click this link to see read the following quote of Alan Cox Redhat, Linux. Cox told LinuxWorld. "KDE provides more configuration and control, and Gnome more ease of use while giving up that control." Again, it is no surprise that Ubuntu, gnome desktop is the most popular distro. As I said, quality of documentation can determine a Desktop's appeal, usefulness and popularity. Quality of documentation can contribute to the ease of use of the desktop.

This is a forum, not a classroom, nor a prepared lesson. Time is limited. Also, your comparison amounts to peas and potatos, and legumes and tubers while edible are not otherwise related. I know. You don't understand that either. It is not my fault that your understanding of teaching is such that you weren't able to see how an educator with a background in Linux could write better documentation than some Linux Guru. After all, Documentation is a teaching tool, something I said before. Neither is it my fault, that you did not know that knowledge of teaching will change how one looks at documentation, enabling one to see the link between quality documentation and Desktop and Distro popularity. Everyon has a different learning curve. You apparently learned that now. Finally, you failed to asked questions before leaping to erroneous conclusions about my motives. Ask first! Give someone the benefit of the doubt. Finally, since major points were reiterated, you're skimming through the post probably contributed to your erroneous understanding of my intent.

You are correct in saying that where someone was raised does not determine inherent ability, but those are needless words on your part, for I implicitly said that before you did. You think on the micro level, talking of individual ability. I do not care about individual ability as it pertains to this thread. I was speaking on the Macro level. Read post 75. In it, I said that European documentation (KDE in particular) was too Spartan. In previous posts before post# 75, I held Ubuntu and Opensuse apart from Europe and everyone else as examples of great documentation, Opensuse to a lesser degree. I held them apart knowing full well that they are European. I, for some reason, assumed that the average reader's cognitive ability would allow them to grasp the fact that I was speaking in general terms and not referring to every individual and Distro associated with Europe . Apparently, I was wrong. Now you might say that such a statement is only my opinion. However, that opinion about Ubuntu and Opensuse is shared by this website. Let me guess. You think that they are telling lies. More websites: here, here and here. As I said, quality of documentation can determine a Desktop's appeal, usefulness and popularity.

NimbleX, Romania; KDE.de, Germany, when I go to their websites, I find that their documentation is too Spartan to be useful. This statement is an opinion, yes, but if it is an opinion without merit, then explain why the Distros that are touted and lauded as having the best documentation are the most popular? As I said, quality of documentation can determine a Desktop's appeal, usefulness and popularity. Common sense dictates that it is know surprise that the the Distro with the best documentation together with the easiest to use desktop (Gnome) will be more popular thsn s more difficult to use Desktop, KDE. Of course, you, teebone, probably think that Alan Cox of Redhat is a liar too.

The waters are a bit muddy there. I think you're confusing the "distro" with the "desktop."

For many years, Suse (in the days before opensuse) was regarded as the distro which had the best documentation available, and at the time their desktop was KDE. And this was when it was still German-based. Their distro came with a manual written in a similar style to the excellent MS-DOS 5 manual, and it was written in English.
Pardon me for saying this, but I think that's a bit rude. If you want to be involved in a balanced discussion, then it's only fair that you should read the support for counter-arguments.
Firstly, that article is old enough to be no longer statistically relevant. Secondly, Alan Cox didn't actually say what you're saying he did. The author of the article wrote, "Evidence from different reports suggests KDE is more widely used in Europe and Gnome in the US." This was not a direct quote from Alan Cox, who, from what I've seen over the past 10-odd years, has only rarely made divisive comments - and certainly nothing this controversial.

yanfaun,

screaming, doesn't do anything.. yabbering neither.
you simply can't take any critism, or a vision against yours.

So, I and someone else here, gets the blame for doing so. (look arround there is a pattern evolving here by reading the replies. More and more write to you, with a different vision. just like i do.

You don't read carefully, you begin to spree with all kinds of non-arguments, to "prove" that your vision is king, and we need to listen to that. just like a politician or manager:

"scream until your heard, if your not heard, scream harder!"

Most of your "proof" is based on some links from blogs and personal vision of the authors (mostly). not real factual representation, more a wild assumption, don't you think?
furthermore: I don't care if you like or dislike one or the other, that's not the point of our "quarrel" / discussion.

This however IS:
You combine two things, that CANNOT, and SHOULD not be combined.
namely:

End Product, vs, nationality of staffers/volunteers.

And you, my friend, did so in your (now famous) paragraph.
THAT'S WHY I RESPONDED, AND ALSO POINTED IT OUT IN MY POSTS.
But (*big sigh*) , i appear to be writing to a so called deafmens ears here..
since you completely ingored this critical issue, by distracting from it with other (non relevant) arguments.

I hope it finally gets through, in such way that you will you see that your paragraph alone, did raise a big frown, and an unpleasant feeling among several readers. Since just that paragraph, is very blunt, and full of unsupported facts.
And i can tell you, many professors and professional educators would agree with us.

so, yanfaun. sorry for the harsh tone, but i feld i had too.
No worries though, it's a though debate, hard to hard.. about this subject alone..
outside of that, i don't hate you (for as much i know you from here).

so i quit this "quarrel", we've hijacked this thread long enough. agree?

I can't believe this! But you think that we should read your endless posts, don't you?!

Sure we can be friends
When I write something that you do not understand that is my fault, your words in post 78. When I bold, italicize and underline key points, you call it yelling. In internet terms, yelling is all caps, which I did not use.

No one writes like you do. They ask questions; you hurtle baseless accusations.

One of my major points has been that quality of documentation can determine a Desktop's appeal, usefulness and popularity., and Ubuntu is ranked number #1. As far as I know, KDE desktops are not touted as having documentation on par with Gnome in Ubuntu. Therefore it comes as no surprise that KDE is not as popular as Gnome on Ubuntu.

Wrong again as usual. I provided Links to Distrowatch.com. They've said that Ubuntu has a wealth of documentation. I do think anyone would call Distrowatch anything other than an excellent source of credible information.

I provided links to sites whose polls showed that Gnome was more popular than Gnome. You say such information lacks credibility because they are only opinions. Popularity...uhm... is a matter of opinion...hello?! Here's another revelation. This whole thread is comprised largely of opinions...hello.
By the way, one of the links which showed that Gnome was more popular than Gnome was at the Ubuntu forums

As I said, quality of documentation can determine a Desktop's appeal, usefulness and popularity., and Ubuntu is ranked number #1. As far as I know, KDE desktops are not touted as having documentation on par with Gnome in Ubuntu. Therefore it comes as no surprise that KDE is not as popular as Gnome on Ubuntu.
You claim to be concerned about what you call nationality and end users. Uhm...again...hello? I said that Ubuntu and Opensuse, both European, have great documentation. I also said that KDE documentation from Europe tends to be more for people with an advanced understanding of Linux, an opinion, true. However, unlike Gnome on Ubuntu, at Distrowatch.com, there are no Distros which offer KDE as their sole Desktop. AS I said, quality of documentation can determine a Desktop's appeal, usefulness and popularity. Quality of documentation can contribute to the ease of use of the desktop. Ubuntu runs Gnome and has great documentation for Ubuntu and Gnome.

Here is your Modus Operandi:
Rather than asking questions, you hurtle baseless accusations. When your accusations are shot down, you attack something else. Then you repeat the cycle. Now you understand me; you realize that my position is benign, and you're tired of having your accusations shot down in public.

Your pride now dictates that you must save face, so what to do? What to do? Modify your Modus Operndi. Call what I've written merit-less, a contention killed three paragraphs ago. Attempt to align your uncouth accusations with the polite questions of others. Claim that my statements about great documentation from KDE.de being too spartan to be useful to those without an inordinate amount of pre-existing Linux knowledge an assault upon European culture. Never mind that I've said that documentation for Ubuntu, England and Opensuse, Germany was superlative.

One of my major points has been that quality of documentation can determine a Desktop's appeal, usefulness and popularity., and Ubuntu is ranked number #1. As far as I know, KDE desktops are not touted as having documentation on par with Gnome in Ubuntu. Therefore it comes as no surprise that KDE is not as popular as Gnome on Ubuntu.

How you can attempt to save face while simultaneously obliterating it, is a mystery to me, but if you're sincere, we can be friends. Howdy, friend

Yes, you are correct. This does seem a bit rude. 100% accurate proofreading immediately after a writing is a skill that has sometimes eluded me. The reason that I print it and use a highlighter if it's important, sorry. What I meant to say was “Since I've respected all that you've written, I will definitely read this when I have the time to read without rushing.” The intent was respect, not rudeness. I am glad that I thought that way because reading your articles led to other articles.

The waters are not muddy, and no, I am not confusing a Distro with a desktop. As I said, quality of documentation can determine a Desktop's appeal, usefulness and popularity. Ubuntu, a Distro, has been touted as having great documentation by many. Ubuntu also has great documentation about its chosen Desktop, Gnome. As I said, quality of documentation can determine a Desktop's appeal, usefulness and popularity., and Ubuntu is ranked number #1. As far as I know, KDE desktops are not touted as having documentation on par with Gnome in Ubuntu. Therefore, it comes as no surprise that KDE is not as popular as Gnome on Ubuntu.

Your First Article was a link to the slackware home page, so I'll address it first.
You called my article dated May 2005 irrelevant, but you quote from 2004 and 2005. How is that fair? Maybe your first link was an error on your part. Your first link went to the Slackware home page where I was lost. Not knowing what else to do, I opened the Slackware book, pdf version, page 37. Quote,“This cd also contains a few packages
such as the KDE and GNOME desktop environments.” The acknowledgments for the books were dated May 2005, Alan Hicks. Apparently, your source had a change of heart, and quickly, probably too many protest.

Your second Link
According to this link, Opensuse came to be in January 2004, yet you call my information from May of 2005, statistically relevant. Finally, Ive stated that Opensuse has great documentation, but to a leser extent than Ubuntu. Opensue in my experience and according to this link has been labeled bloated and slow by some, to say nothing of the update maldies. This explains to me why Opensuse has fallen in popularity according to this link. Great Distro otherwise.

Your third Link
You call my information from May of 2005, statistically relevant, yet you cite information from an Anerican author who wrote in May 2004. Is this not a double standard?. Forgive me, but this is the first time that I've ever felt disappointed by your writing. Nautilus in Gnome does not have those maladies. I caanot speak for 2004.


After carefully reexamining the article it is not clear that the author is not injecting his opinion. However, he could simply be paraphrasing or summarizing AlanCox's words. Moreover, in the same article, Alan Cox did suggest that Gnome KDE serve different users. Now look at the highly praised documentation of Ubuntu. Look at the popularity of Gnome on Ubuntu vs KDE on anything. and what Alan Cox was quoted as having said. Do the preceding and it's not hard to see a link between desktop popularity and great documentation. Currently, according to many sources, the documentation award, if there were one, popularity of the distro being the winning criterion, it would go to Ubuntu, which runs Gnome. KDE docuentation is not receiving the same quantity and quality of praise.

As I said, quality of documentation can determine a Desktop's appeal, usefulness and popularity., and Ubuntu is ranked number #1. As far as I know, KDE desktops are not touted as having documentation on par with Gnome in Ubuntu.

Always a pleasure to hear from you. You always have something thought provoking to say.

Which desktop (Gnome, KDE or other) would you use in a home business or small business environment?
Documentation aside of course

The same can also be said for Arch and Gentoo. Many writers praise the documentation of both of these distributions, and yet neither of them has a 'default' desktop.
Oh, there were protests alright... but to this day, Slackware still does not come with Gnome. Trust me, I've installed every version since 7.0 was released in 1999, and know this to be the case.

This is from the release notes for the current version:

"If you prefer GNOME, there are teams online producing GNOME for
Slackware. Here are a few places to look:

http://gnomeslackbuild.org
http://www.droplinegnome.net/
http://www.gware.org/

If any of these replaces some system components, using them voids
your warranty. ;-) But it should work, *if* you absolutely must have
GNOME. I'd suggest Xfce instead if you want a GTK+ based desktop."

(emphasis added)
I guess you could perceive it that way, unless you read the few words I wrote before it, which said, "For some historical perspective..." I certainly was not trying to pass this off as current information. It was purely to provide some background information, to perhaps help you develop a deeper understanding of the reasons why some KDE users are using KDE. In posting that link, I was also highlighting the fact that things weren't always as they are now.
I don't think he meant "different" in the geographic sense. "Different," in terms of technical skill, perhaps.
Interesting perspective, but personally, I'd say that the documentation hasn't had as much of an impact as the whole "ease of use and/or installation," thing. Even the most spartan of Linux distributions comes with more documentation than is viable to print these days. Have a look under /usr/doc or /usr/share/doc.
Could you post a reference to an article praising Ubuntu's Gnome documentation? I've Googled, but can't find one. DistroWatch, which you've posted many times, is actually silent on it.
Thankyou. It's nice to hear things like that.

I still don't get it.

So you're saying that everything from Europe is crap?

I see that you said that OpenSUSE has good documentation, but then you go on and on and on bashing European projects.

GNOME seems faster to me. It's also less bloated. Every time I try to install a KDE openSUSE or Fedora the installer locks up. I also once tried running it on Ubuntu Netbook Remix and it also locked up. I've never gotten KDE to work (though I haven't really tried that hard) so I'm going to say GNOME is definitely a better option.

On anything that I/ve ever run, Gnome is faster. It's always worked for me. In post # 51, I detailed my every problem that I've ever had with KDE on any Distro.

How much RAM do you have?
Thanks for contributing to our thread! Love fresh faces, regardless of Distro choice.