Hi Forum

Is this piracy...?

Some years ago, while i was still graduating in Mechanical Engineering, still used Windows at that time, so, did not know how to use/make lots of nice OSS apps,

( this is one of the reasons that made me shift to Linux... the fact that Open Source analysis codes are much more reliable... they are not just black-boxes, in which one cycles along garbage-in garbage out loops... one gets to know what do REALLY the results mean... )

I used to have ALL the proprietary mainstream generalistic applications for Mechanical Engineering :

CAD : Solid-Works, Catia, Autodesk Inventor, Pro Engineer...
FEA : Ansys, Abaqus, Adina, the whole mcNeal Schwendler ( MSC ) Software suite,
CFD : Fluent, CFX, FIDAP, CD Adapco
Math : Matlab
Pre/post processing : FieldView, ICEM CFD, Gambit, Pointwise, Gridgen, Ensight...

... you name one...

I NEVER USED ANY OF THESE FOR PROFIT... I NEVER GAVE ANY COPY OF THESE TO ANYONE NOR HAVE I SHARED IT IN P2P...

I had them installed in my desktop, and would lose some time along the week to get used to using the software, and gaining practise with it... a Self study thing... How to solve and tackle problems using Industry Standard Tools in Engineerin design and project.

Once I shifted to Linux and found that most of the things I could do with proprietary apps I can also do with OSS applications, I completely forgot about them ( still have the dvds somewhere... ) and even formatted that Desktop where i used to have them.

Now it has Mint and is used by my mom to surf the web, watch some movies, write some things, etc.

Of Course i still use proprietary apps for Linux at work, but these are licensed.

Now I ask you...

Could I be considered to have been a pirate, or having stolen anything in fact of what I have done...?

never actually earned anything material with all this...

Only did it to be more prepared if I ever needed one of these tools in the marketplace...


BRGDS

Alex

Arr, matey. A pirate is what ye be.

(I will say first that I haven't read the full thread)

There are in fact two issues. Firstly, is an action unlawful copyright infringement. This depends on country. In the UK, there is no fair use copying. Ripping a CD to mp3 violates copyright. Putting those mp3 files on a player violates it again.

Secondly there's whether something is morally right or wrong. I am not going to advocate any moral stance regarding copying stuff. However, I will say one thing - despite what some organisations like to say, copyright infringement is NOT theft, either legally or morally.

The reason is simple. When you steal a physical object, the person you steal from loses wealth. However, when you make an illegal copy of something, the rights-holder loses nothing compared to if you had done nothing. You gain, and nobody loses. One must compare the illegal action not only to the legal means of you getting the same thing, but also to the action where you do nothing.

But 'dat dont make it legal.

See, here's the fundamental issue: Throughout all known history up until the invention of copyright law, "stealing" meant to take property away from someone else so that you could have it (or sell it, or whatever). And "property" referred to something (usually tangible) that really could only be owned by one person or group of persons at a time.

At some point in very recent history, we decided that all creative ideas should be considered property. Furthermore, we decided that all new creative ideas should be considered by default the exclusive property of the guy that (supposedly) thought it up first. And furthermore, we decided that for another person to copy that idea, modify that idea, or (heaven forbid) make a profit off the idea, without the permission of the first guy, is the equivalent of stealing.

When you copy a DVD you aren't "stealing" 1s and 0s because the guy who made the 1s and 0s still has all of his. In fact, you could copy those 1s and 0s a million times and you will have taken nothing from anyone.

Of course, the immediate reply is "well, those pirates stole all the profits I could have made licensing out my intellectual property." First of all, that argument only has meaning if you accept the flawed premise that intellectual ideas are property that should be owned and limited. Second, it still shouldn't be called "stealing" because the "pirates" haven't taken anything tangible away from anyone... They have only reduced the likely-hood of someone making a certain amount of profit in the future.

I know this is different in every country, but in Belgium, ISP's are the pimps of all warez.
With a normal (and cheaper) connection, you only have about 10gig down and 2gig up (data-limits). If you need more you'll have to pay for every extra gig.

If your car painter charges 4 times as much for painting a car without papers, that's a crime as well.

But How...?

I never deprived the Owner of such proprietary software from having its income...

Never used it for profit...

Never have i reduced the potential income of the software vendor by sharing these things with others...

As a matter of fact, having used these apps while being a student may have constituted income for the vendors...

Once integrating the design team of the company, I was asked as what would be the best tool to make some analysis, and I answered based on the experience that I had gained previously...

So the company bought 50 licenses for that analysis software...

...Hadn't i have a previous experience in using them, the decision might have been not to use program x, but program y...

BRGDS

Alex

"Black & White" answer:
You violated several licenses using them.

That doesn't mean I think you did something immoral though.

When things are borderline issues, you can always find a way to rationalize being on either side of the border. In your case, the argument seems to be that you were using the SW for evaluation.

It seems to me that the moral test would involve the author's intent. If the product is released with the intent that all users should buy it, then---by using it without paying---you are depriving the author of revenue. The analogy that comes to mind is all the people that you see at a bookstore reading books and magazines without ever buying them. Yes--many are just **evaluating**. But, when they come back to the store regularly and just read without buying, then a moral line has been crossed.

The moral test could also be the user's intent---ie. why did the user install and use the SW without paying for the license?

Free SW + paid support seems so much simpler......

Hi Pixellany

I understand...

BRGDS

Alex

Where in your post do you tell us that you downloaded/copied the proprietary applications without proper permission? Piracy is a question of permission, and saying "I used to have..." with no statement as to how you came into possession makes the question of piracy impossible to answer.

Hi Moxieman99

I downloaded these apps with emule...

But once in posession of them, I did not shere them to P2P...

They were being illegally shared, this is how I came into possession of them...

Did never share them though...

BRGDS

Alex

See my previous post as to piracy question, but this one has a gigantic flaw. Specifically, you're thinking that steering customers the business' way somehow excuses or ameliorates one's original piracy.

If I skip out on a meal at a restaurant and then recommend the place to my friends (who go and pay), have I "un-committed" my crime? Of course not. Likewise, if you pirate a copy of Windows, and like it so much that you tell your clients to set up their computer systems using Windows, is your pirated copy "un-pirated?"

Sorry, but the crime is the crime.

Meaning that you aren't as big a criminal as the guy who did share. That's like defending against a rape charge on the grounds that "I only put it in a little."

So, was what you did criminal or immoral? Yes on both counts. Did it not also have a benefit in the grand scheme of things? Apparently yes.

Also, you wrote of advising a client who proceeded to buy 50 licences. Did you get the job based on you ability to compare the various programs, an ability that you gained through the illegal downloads? Then you did profit directly from the copying.

Hi Moxieman99

I understand... but I think your analogy is not correct ...

I did not skip out the meal in the restaurant, because I never got to "eat" anything in the first place...

I would have really "skipped the meal" if I had ever used any of those apps for a profitable endeavour ( ate something for my profit ) like designing something to a customer and selling my project using a tool which I was not authorized to... which i never did...

The only thing I may have "skipped" was the ability to know how to use the tools... but this is not a service provided by the software vendor... or at least, not included in the price of purchase of a license... for most cases...

And I did that in self-study... never requiring the unpaid services of tutors...

BRGDS

Alex