The Faith & Religion mega Thread

Roe v. Wade is dead! Thank God!

Originally Posted by mjolnir Roe v. Wade is dead! Thank God!

Why was it ever the case that "seven old men" could craft a tortured interpretation of the 14th Amendment to write a law?

"Laws" are supposed to be the product of many hundreds of quarreling people, not just seven. But, both Legislatures and Congress were happy to not have to confront this issue themselves, even though it is their job to do exactly that.

Originally Posted by mjolnir Roe v. Wade is dead! Thank God!

I don't mean to pry but you can certainly refuse to answer - Are you female, Mjolnir? If not why do you care so fervently? More importantly, what does it have to do with Faith, Religion, Spirituality or Non-Religion? Do you interpret something in scripture that can be construed to mean human life begins at conception? or is that a personal conviction?

Originally Posted by enorbet Unicorns, werewolves, witches, and supernatural beings as well as Young, Flat Earth as the Center of the Universe because it is non-repeatable, subjective, proven nonsense driven by a need to shore up superstitious Myth from 2000+ years ago.

Scoffer. Nothing in the Biblical record has ever been disproven, though many have tried. Those who have made serious attempts have always failed to publish success, or have had their purported success refuted. Veith was originally an atheist scoffer. Bignon was originally an atheist scoffer. Have you ever listened to or read a story of a former atheist scoffer, to learn about the evidence that caused his switch? I suppose not. You wouldn't want to risk learning that in which your confidence is high is bunk. Modern technology is finding ever increasing support for the Biblical record, not just creating ever smaller VLSI chips, finding improved ways to bombard bodies with destructive energy, or increasing the probability of a nuclear winter to reverse global warming.

The writers of our Declaration of Independence, Constitution, Bill of Rights, Federalist Papers & Northwest Ordinance weren't scoffers. Isaac Newton, Michael Faraday, Francis Bacon, Gottfried Leibniz & Blaise Pascal among other notable pioneering scientists weren't atheist scoffers.

I DO use faith in a pejorative manner because it seems a correctable mistake to bet against the odds just because of wishful thinking.

IIRC, I've seen it stated that the odds against DNA being the result of anything other than intelligent design are higher than the number of atoms in the universe. I believe it. I have high confidence the evolution taught to children in tax-supported public schools is a fairy tale.

Originally Posted by mrmazda You wouldn't want to risk learning that in which your confidence is high is bunk.

You seriously don't get it, mrmazda. Life is so much easier when a person agrees with the majority in his community. Much more importantly it would be extremely comforting to think some part of me will go on forever and be reunited with loved ones, so I take no solace, let alone pleasure in concluding all scripture is superstitious myth. I simply must go with real evidence not wishful imagination since I accept that living by principles isn't the soft, flower-strewn path. Confirmation bias is a seductive but deadly trap.

Originally Posted by enorbet I don't mean to pry but you can certainly refuse to answer - Are you female, Mjolnir? If not why do you care so fervently? More importantly, what does it have to do with Faith, Religion, Spirituality or Non-Religion? Do you interpret something in scripture that can be construed to mean human life begins at conception? or is that a personal conviction?

Male, but I know many, many females who agree with my biblically based convictions:
Psalms 127:3-5 3:Children are a heritage from the LORD, offspring a reward from him.
4:4 Like arrows in the hands of a warrior are children born in one’s youth.
5:5 Blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them.

Psalm 139:13-15
English Standard Version
13 For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.[a]
Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,

Proverbs 6:16-19 ESV / 791 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

Exodus 21:22-25 ESV / 769 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
“When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Psalm 127:3-5 ESV / 374 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one's youth. Blessed is the man who fills his quiver with them! He shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate.

Hosea 12:3 ESV / 94 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
In the womb he took his brother by the heel, and in his manhood he strove with God.

Amos 1:13 ESV / 65 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Thus says the Lord: “For three transgressions of the Ammonites, and for four, I will not revoke the punishment, because they have ripped open pregnant women in Gilead, that they might enlarge their border.

2 Kings 8:12 ESV / 65 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
And Hazael said, “Why does my lord weep?” He answered, “Because I know the evil that you will do to the people of Israel. You will set on fire their fortresses, and you will kill their young men with the sword and dash in pieces their little ones and rip open their pregnant women.”

Many, many more verses that reinforce my belief that my GOD knows us in the womb.

Thanks for responding, mjolnir, I see your convictions are bible-based which is fine but at what point does the Christian Bible declare a fetus equals a child? Many fetuses every day die before they are born in miscarriage, some shortly after they are born, especially "premmies" though medicine has reduced that amount substantially. When the chapters of the bible were written there were very high percentages of infant mortality that often included the mothers as well. Things like that are hard to reconcile and we haven't even spoken about pregnancies due to rape.

Some states are calling abortion of a fetus even in the first weeks murder even if the fetus endangers the life of the mother, and by "calling murder" I mean actionable !! They intend to prosecute! That doesn't strike me as consistent with "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness". From my POV, Life is for the Living first and foremost. A Mother can become pregnant many times, a fetus in the first trimester is not yet human in my view and even if we disagree on that, the Mom's life comes first.

Originally Posted by BW-userx to preach: publicly proclaim or teach

Preaching is not teaching. It's indoctrinating.

what good can come out of chaos?

Just about everything?
Because, before creation, there was a primeval chaos?

I was to lazy to read the whole text, sorry.

Originally Posted by enorbet Are you female, Mjolnir?

I am.

More importantly, what does it have to do with Faith, Religion, Spirituality or Non-Religion?

Faith, religion and spirituality consider the human life to be sacred.
Some consider all life to be sacred.
Some consider everything as alive, in one way or another.

And because honest atheism leads to nihilism.
And in nihilism, everything is allowed. No limits, no barriers. No conscience (since the conscience is an internal barrier which limits our actions)

Originally Posted by enorbet Do you interpret something in scripture that can be construed to mean human life begins at conception? or is that a personal conviction?

I presume you interpret that human life doesn't begin at conception?
THe creature in the womb is most certainly alive (therefor: a life). If it's not a human life, what species is it?
All living things can be categorized by species.

Originally Posted by enorbet at what point does the Christian Bible declare a fetus equals a child?

Does it matter? When sperm fertilizes egg, the parent human chromosomes are paired, the characteristics of a new individual determined, the growth process begun. Human birth is simply when the source of nutrients changes from umbilical cord to face, no longer filtered through the mother; along with changing how waste is disposed of. A mother or surrogate remains essential to survival and source of food for a lot more than 9 more months. Why should it be OK to snuff a child's life at 5 fetal weeks or 5 fetal months and not at 5 months post-birth, 5 years post-birth, or 15 or 65 years?

Originally Posted by SanjaM I presume you interpret that human life doesn't begin at conception? THe creature in the womb is most certainly alive (therefor: a life). If it's not a human life, what species is it? All living things can be categorized by species.

If you split a zygote multiply to two cells then split them apart to produce twins instead of a single baby, have you created more lives or not? If you split a zygote in two and then kill one of them, have you reduced the number of lives or not? If you let the zygote multiply into to two cells, then kill one of them without splitting them apart first, have you reduced the number of lives or not?

These questions are entirely hypothetical since we lack the technology to do that (though you can do a crude version of this experiment today with worms), but I think it still points to a problem with the claim the there is definitely a singular life that is imbued into some designated(?) cells.

Originally Posted by enorbet ...Do you interpret something in scripture that can be construed to mean human life begins at conception?...

Mostly these two verses: The angel's prediction to Zechariah and his wife Elizabeth about John - "He will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb, and he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God." (Luke 1:5-25)

and:

Elizabeth to Mary - "And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy," Elizabeth said. (Luke 1:43-44)

...others.

Originally Posted by ntubski If you split a zygote multiply to two cells then split them apart to produce twins instead of a single baby, have you created more lives or not? If you split a zygote in two and then kill one of them, have you reduced the number of lives or not? If you let the zygote multiply into to two cells, then kill one of them without splitting them apart first, have you reduced the number of lives or not? These questions are entirely hypothetical since we lack the technology to do that (though you can do a crude version of this experiment today with worms), but I think it still points to a problem with the claim the there is definitely a singular life that is imbued into some designated(?) cells.

This doesnt answer my question, though.
Which species is it? Could you split these zygotes in a way to get a butterfly as a final product?

Mengele did experiments on humans too. If you experiment with eye color and make brown eyes black, were we wrong when we thought that the person is blue-eyed?
Or do we simply think of Mengele as a Monster?

Why would anyone experiment on human zygotes?

Originally Posted by SanjaM This doesnt answer my question, though. Which species is it? Could you split these zygotes in a way to get a butterfly as a final product?

I'm not sure how that matters? If you must classify, then sure it's cells of the human species. You can take some living cells out of a person which would also be classified as human, but killing those cells would not be murder. So I don't think the species is relevant.

Mengele did experiments on humans too. If you experiment with eye color and make brown eyes black, were we wrong when we thought that the person is blue-eyed? Or do we simply think of Mengele as a Monster? Why would anyone experiment on human zygotes?

It's hypothetical, nobody is actually doing this.

SanjaM - I look at other forms of animal reproduction and realize that some eggs are "laid", at some point before actual birth, placed outside the Mother's body but still requiring her body heat to be viable. Other animals. like we humans, keep the fertilized egg inside the Mother's body until basic external process like simple temperature regulation and breathing can work unassisted, and the baby's body becomes large enough that required food results in digestion producing too much waste for the Mother's body to sustain, the baby is born. Some animals can walk within minutes of birth, more complex animals like Homo Sapiens, require more time outside the Mother's body to develop anything like self-sustaining abilities.

So, I ask you is a chicken egg a chicken even though it will never even be born without a parent providing heat? I say No. Eggs are not birds yet and a fetus is not yet a child. Science has made it possible to have higher rates of survival for "premmies" and even though we could say, "That's not natural survival" that we can do it matters, so I don't think abortion should be allowed after it is possible for a fetus to survive outside the womb. There are some exceptions in my view such as rape and if continuing pregnancy the Mother's life is threatened.

I'm not a physician so I can't possible be more specific than that but it makes no sense to me that say 5 already living children would be risked with high odds that a 6th birth might kill the Mother. Rape is a more difficult case but I'm not a woman so I don't think my opinion matters much on that.

Also thanks to Science we can feed far more numbers of people than at any time in the past (whether we choose to is another issue) but at some point it is entirely possible globally, and is already a problem in some deprived areas, that families must be more ruthless about survival since there are no guarantees and under extreme conditions a baby is not a blessing but a deadly problem. I salute the courage of any family that chooses to risk entire family death by taking on the burden of caring for yet another child (maybe hard to imagine since Science has made survival easier, but it still exists in some places and can increase again) but only to a point. Once the odds exceed even that the family would be likely decimated by a new birth, I also respect those families dedication to the survival of their existing families and see that choice as theirs, not The State's.