The Faith & Religion mega Thread

Whatever you*'re born into! Even when some find enough reality, we see we're not teaching the world's babies anything new! (◔_◔)

Edit.

@business_kid: I'm not here to debate "the Apocrypha." I have absolutely no skin in that game. All of these documents are chock-full of contradictions, and "I like to think that Almighty God understands this." After all, He has been putting up with humans since the very first day that He invented them.

Whenever we take a very close look at "any of this stuff," I simply think that we ought not be surprised to see: "warts and all."

Thoroughly-messy, thoroughly-human factors like "ancient religious politics" are an inescapable part of the record that we now have, and we cannot today objectively measure the influences that such now-ancient things might have had. The means of gaining such knowledge, however earnestly we might wish to have it now, simply do not exist.

Lots of other things: the survival of papyrus in the desert. Unfortunate fires that forever consumed ancient libraries. "Sh*t happened."

"Therefore, here we all are."

And – as for myself – this doesn't disturb me. Because I don't choose to ask of these documents anything more than [I choose to think that ...] they are. "Inconsistencies? Why, I expect them!"

As I have said, "I utterly respect the viewpoints of everyone who feels differently."

Fair enough.

My POV is that there are no meaningful contradictions in the Bible on matters of doctrine. In fact, there are some small ones. For instance, three of the gospel writers have Jesus executed around the same time. But the 4th mentions a later time, which could well have run folks into trouble with the Sabbath, as the Jewish day went from sundown to sundown, and the next day was a Great Sabbath. And witness accounts of the same event differ even today, so small issues are not surprising.

But if you run accross what looks like a major difference, it's probably that you don't understand it, or the language & conventions of the times. Also, the Geography is important in instances, particularly battles.

Other than that, it teaches one message, and follows one theme throughout. It is a guide to mankind. But saying the Bible contradicts itself is a handy excuse for not taking it's guidance seriously. The clergy don't defend it - they want you to listen to (and pay) them instead.

EDIT: Sure, bad stuff happened. The works of many ancient historians are lost to us, or only survive in fragments. They all got taken to Rome, which was burned. The works of Josephus survived in one Greek copy found in the 15th century.

Now Jews of the 2nd/3rd centuries collected Christian (Bible) books and burned them together every Sabbath. Many attempts were made to wipe out the Bible. Yet today, we have thousands of fragments and some complete manuscripts, like the Vatican 1209 (NT only), the Sinaiatic codex(Entire Bible), both afaik on vellum. There are are agreed texts, Kittel's Biblia Hebraica, and Wescott & Hort's Greek text which are the basis for most modern translations. These can be updated by older readings found since they were collated. It's a whole field of study in itself.

No meaningful contradictions in the bible?

Originally Posted by LearnReligions.com Scientific errors — statements that conflict with facts about reality we have learned through scientific investigation — can be found throughout the Bible because the biblical texts were written at times when human knowledge about our world was quite limited. We can't blame ancient writers for knowing less than we do now, but we can blame people alive now for preferring the errors of ancient writers over the reliable knowledge developed today. Historical Errors in the Bible Historical errors are mistakes in the historical record: claims about events happening or which happened but which never did and claims about events that would happen in the future but which never transpired. One might expect an ancient text to have an accurate record of ancient events, but historians, as we know, have not always been completely honest with their representation of events. In the past, records were written with an ideological agenda behind them, not for the sake of pure actual accuracy. Historical mistakes and errors are only to be expected.

Seeing God

“… I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” — Genesis 32:30

“No man hath seen God at any time…”– John 1:18

Timeline
GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.

There are hundreds of inconsistencies and errors in the Christian Bible, which is perfectly understandable if one accepts that either (in increasingly skeptical order) the language/translation is imperfect at the very least in early written form (consider The Word referring to creating man in "His" image in one location and "by US", in another... which could simply be bad translation to "us"), not actually revealed, revelation is impossible, God exists but cares not for any one planet or life on it, God doesn't exist... take your pick. Literal and perfect are simply impossible.

Please do see this in the manner in which I present it. It is possible that God exists, Jesus was the Son of God (or at least possibly an actual Prophet) and this incredible situation is in any way conceivable however imperfectly by simple human beings, but it is certainly true that there is ZERO credible, hard evidence.

There not only is but cannot be any case by which the christian bible is perfect and literal. Period. One either believes on Faith, or one does not. I don't, but if you do, that's OK by me as long as you don't try to pass laws controlling society based on your Faith. We can't all agree on conjecture, Myth and Faith but we should be able to all agree on Life, Liberty and Justice For All.

Originally Posted by enorbet “… I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” — Genesis 32:30 “No man hath seen God at any time…”– John 1:18

John 1:18 is correct. Jecob had wrestled with an angel in Genesis 32:30. Early patriarchs may not have known about the existence of angels.

As for the Genesis 1 timeline, the sun was there from day 1, but as the account is given from the perspective of someone standing on the earth, changes were there. There were no light switches; instead, natural processes were started and allowed to complete in their own time. You can infer that much from the past continuous verb tenses`in better translations. So the process begun on day 1 of setting up day and night as desired only completed on day 4.

I am not troubled by these, or doubters, and you don't believe it at all, so I won't elaborate.

1 things for sure, no one's elaborated past, NDEs...

"NDE Stories From Real People - Near Death Experiences
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I guess I have to blame my search engine for the 1st things popping up as ads,,, on the other residual limb, why else would they hand out pamphlets or "bibles?" Lol

Anyone's welcome to let me know after they die, no fun and games intended!

Just to be clear, business_kid, it isn't at all that I just dismiss the christian bible offhand let alone hold any disdain for it. It is indeed an important window on The Past, but IMHO the HUMAN Past. It is a compilation of some 30 writers and translations from some of the very earliest of written languages when the entire concept of Civilization was in it's infancy. There are insights galore into human behaviour, some of which have changed rather drastically and yet others that are still here and important. The christian bible is incredibly important as both literature and history. It's just that I don't see it as, nor can it even remotely possibly be Divine. It's Human and like any compilation contradictory and in many cases just plain wrong, but it is still highly valuable... when it isn't expected to be literal and infallible. That's not only mistaken, it is a source of substantial and ongoing problems and obstacles to progress.

Well I'd agree that the Bible is misused as an obstacle to progress, to justify all sorts of unjust things, etc. Just because somebody uses the Bible doesn't mean the Bible as a whole teaches that stuff. But you're entitled to your opinions.

One of the things the Bible lets us understand is that there was a 'Plan A' for the world, but we're now on 'Plan B' which is a temporary diversion to get us back on Plan A. Most people don't get that.

The other big thing folks don't get is that a lot of of paganism got imported into "Christianity." So they look at religions and see wrong things. To those folks I'd say: "Do not adjust your set - you should be seeing wrong things." True worship has always been in the minority.

A mouse is born in a shoe box that has a food and water dispenser. Perhaps if this mouse was really intelligent and imaginative he/she might wonder if the food and water terminals enter the box from outside the box, but given no experience whatsoever of "outside" it is far more likely the mouse would simply assume "This is The World", and what other mouse born in the box could ever prove him/her wrong?... without chewing through one of the sides?

@rokytnji -- "Edit: Anyone with common sense knows the council of Nicaea was full of agendas. Only as good as what was put in it."

GIGO.

As a North American, it has amazed me from an early age that those from Europe seem to 1) have to have a king, and 2) seem to prioritize money over almost everything.
Council of Nicea corrupted the message, then came The King James Version! Politics! Let such eat and breath money and drink the poisons left in water as a result of mining for what brings them money!

About the most important thing I read in the Bible is that He will destroy those who ruin Earth. That brings me hope.

Evolution happens but revolution is just as slow?!.

We don't work the same as hardrives so have to start at the babies!

Imagine from their futures, unimaginable tracks of time... 🤞

The only religious book that was ever claimed to have been "revealed" in its entirety was, AFAIK, the Book of Mormon – however, neither the purported gold tablets, nor the magic spectacles, nor the Angel Moroni have ever been found. Make of that what you please.

As for the Bible, it's full of plenty of contradictions and some very-awful things: for example, the first few books contain an abundance of cases where God commands genocide. (Believed-to-be contemporary books such as the Q'Ran are similarly violent especially in their earliest accounts.) There are prophecies that didn't come true, contradictions within itself (because "the collection" was assembled long after the source documents were individually written), and so on and on.

And, guess what – when you delve into "ancient documents," religious or otherwise, that is what you should expect to see. Because, "people are how it all got here," and over a very long period of time during which a whole lot of things can go wrong. Clay jars got dropped, entire libraries were burned, scribes tried to speak for themselves ... politics is not a new invention ... religion and the state are usually joined at the hip ...

"And so, here we all are."

I sincerely think that you're setting yourself up for disappointment and disillusionment if you try to hold any ancient text – or collection of the same – up to (what I consider to be ...) an unrealistic expectation. Give it a little slack. (If God needs to correct you, He'll just use any nearby rock to talk to you about it.)

Also: "one way or another, these books – warts and all – have talked to the very soul of millions and millions of people over many centuries, and that should count for something."

I can't help but doubt Joseph Smith since he was the sole person around at all of his "revelations" and have even deeper reservations about Angels in general and for some reason the name Maroni seems unlikely and comical to me but that's probably songwriter Larry Williams' fault

I never believed it either, but an awful lot of people did, after they basically got kicked out of New York.

Originally Posted by sundialsvcs The only religious book that was ever claimed to have been "revealed" in its entirety was, AFAIK, the Book of Mormon – however, neither the purported gold tablets, nor the magic spectacles, nor the Angel Moroni have ever been found. Make of that what you please. As for the Bible, it's full of plenty of contradictions and some very-awful things: for example, the first few books contain an abundance of cases where God commands genocide. (Believed-to-be contemporary books such as the Q'Ran are similarly violent especially in their earliest accounts.) There are prophecies that didn't come true, contradictions within itself (because "the collection" was assembled long after the source documents were individually written), and so on and on.

The biggest argument against the LDS is that it's prophet, Joseph Smith, was shot by the jealous husband of one of his 20+ wives, many of whom were not divorced from their living husbands. And of course the book is rubbish. Since when did God need translation?

On the Bible, You're obviously trolling, trying to put inspired advice down so you don't feel under any compulsion to take it.
Yes, there were genocides in the Bible, and archaeologists working in the area are on record as wondering why God didn't exterminate those nations sooner. The Q'ran came over 2 milleniums later, fyi. As for your baseless attacks on the Bible (contradictions / false prophecies) put up examples, or withdraw your smears. You may have read it, but apparently never understood the Bible. There are unfulfilled prophecies.

@TorC: Well, I'd agree on Nicea & GIGO. IMHO, Christianity was pretty far gone at that stage. Others, I am sure will disagree with that last point. I would also point out that North Americans are not immune to the charge of prioritising money over everything! As for Rev 11:18 (your ruining the earth point), I'd say that God destroying folk who ruin the earth has present-day implications…