The Faith & Religion mega Thread

Originally Posted by jamison20000e Once "sin" is no longer "believed" we can evolve past it... &c.

Do you think mankind is evolving into a loving people ?

Those who do not believe in sin by definition have no moral law.

a :  an offense against religious or moral law

If one has no ABSOLUTE standards with which to determine right from wrong, then anything goes.

For example

You may feel that napalming people is wrong, but I feel that is o.k.

Examples of those who did not believe in sin are Hitler, Stalin, ISIS, etc.

It's obvious that man's standards can not be depended on.

@ Fixit7 - Certainly Jamison can and will speak for himself, but I think his point is based on a few concepts

Moral Law is not "handed down from above". It is a Social Imperative if you value friends and family, let alone Civilization.
Artificially making Moral Law divorced from the Here and Now, even with both Reward and Punishment being eternal, effectively removes the instinctive rightness gained from bedrock laws that obviously work to the benefit of all.

Example - Notice that after many decades having no posted or enforced speed limits on much of the Autobahn had not resulted in any greater danger to life and limb than on any other similarly major highway.

If a winding mountain road is signed with recommended speed signs for curves and exceeding that by even a few miles an hour results in careening off a cliff, it's a stupid way to sign but over time people will surely follow those signs.

The same road with stupidly low speeds that would only be appropriate for riding a bicycle or collecting fines will often be ignored when repercussions seem unlikely, AND they will breed disrespect and lawlessness.

The same road with actually informative suggested speeds posted for the average auto, will far more likely be observed and distinctly lack the many costs of policing them, AND breed cooperation and respect.

If we are to evolve into a loving people, laws need to be practical and just. Eternal Damnation is simply divorced from all Human experience, and therefore not only useless but counter-productive as soon as society grows to anything beyond a small tribe. Reality is far more understandable and convincing to the greatest number of individuals, regardless of Faith.

In your mind you may believe you will exist eternally but you will not, sorry though get over it. If "earth"(plus our kind) lasts long enough sin will not,,, like fairy tales. That's why we say "unimaginable tracks of time"

Do you belive in evolution when I say: paper, math, radio, TV, interweb &c?

You are missing or ignoring my point.

What standard do you use to determine right from wrong. ??

----------------------------

Your statement is quite wrong.

I have lived in Germany.

And seen wrecks where the engines left the car.

German drivers are safer than U.S. drivers but the laws of physics still apply.

Lets stick with right and wrong and not veer off into damnation etc. :-)

Originally Posted by jamison20000e Do you belive in evolution when I say: paper, math, radio, TV, interweb &c?

You are off topic.

Is that misdirection ?

Yes, your point is wrong exists and I sadly agree. My point is it does not need to... stop teaching everyone anything and only teach them right for a few hundred years!

Originally Posted by Fixit7 You are off topic. Is that misdirection ?

No. I just don't know where you* stand on with us coming from singal cells (in more than one way) so I thought I'd reiterate?


Edit^ & as per usual I'm: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...ml#post5614410

Evolution vs creationism is always spot on here.

Originally Posted by enorbet ... Certainly Jamison can and will speak for himself, ...

Yes sir but feel free any which way.

Originally Posted by Fixit7 You are missing or ignoring my point. What standard do you use to determine right from wrong. ??

Life and living is what creates those standards. Individuals may attempt "an angle" but they are "gambling against the house" in any large group of people. The closer such laws are to a "see it, touch it, feel it, understand it" reality the more observance and respect grows.

Originally Posted by Fixit7 Your statement is quite wrong. I have lived in Germany. And seen wrecks where the engines left the car. German drivers are safer than U.S. drivers but the laws of physics still apply.

Your last sentence proves my point and as for the laws of Physics, I fail to see any relief knowing that a friend died at 50mph than at 140kph. We are not talking about the severity of the damage to cars at greater speeds in a very small sample of cases. We are talking about how common or rare those deviations from the norm are and that the Autobahn dos not have a higher accident rate proves most people are quite capable of governing themselves reasonably, given a "clear road". Not believing in Sin, in the religious sense, does not imply "no moral code" to me.

Originally Posted by Fixit7 Lets stick with right and wrong and not veer off into damnation etc. :-)

Law implies Reward and Punishment. I think discussing those is exactly what any discussion about Moral Law must include. In this case, your initial post on this matter implied (at least to me) that what little decency we have is just barely managed by Heavenly law and without a concept of Sin we would devolve into vicious immorality. I deny this is at all likely and that the only way that Humanity can evolve peacefully into a truly enlightened people is to have Laws that are real and just, based in the easily observed reality of the Here and Now. That transcends all levels of intelligence, culture, financial status, and education.

Originally Posted by enorbet ... Not believing in Sin, in the religious sense, does not imply "no moral code" to me. ...

This line of thinking often annoys me, atheists can love and be righteous more than religious people because religions (on average IMHo) believe that their fairy tales are indeed morals...

Originally Posted by jamison20000e ... stop teaching everyone anything and only teach them right for a few hundred years!

Or the pastors have this job already?

Originally Posted by jamison20000e ...atheists can love and be righteous more than religious people ....

The ISIS is willing to torture and kill innocents in thousands by religious conviction, the way Hitler killed millions for irrational beliefs.

Meanwhile there are athiests professing meticulous norm of social conduct in pursuit of peace.

What an irony.

If you, they or we believe wrong is right then we may teach with it. Why is there so much wrong? Because it's taught. Killing for the greater good is wrong, sacrificing 1 to save 10 is wrong... ... ... believing märchen, ghost-stories, pretend( belived or not)*c*see*sea*sí*and*** to teach children is sightless whether you're blind or not (explain the world.)