The Faith & Religion mega Thread

Originally Posted by kostya Just this: the interpretation that puts all the seemingly contradicting pieces of the Bible together to form one picture must be the right one. It must not contradict any principle stated in this or that part of the Bible. It doesn't matter if it is "mine" or whether someone else came by it. Just as it is in science.

NO, this is not "just as it is in science". If everything "fits", it doesn't mean that interpretation is valid. H_TeXMeX_H already made same mistake. It is possible to build a logical system where everything will "fit" but the system will be fundamentally wrong.

I'm going to give up on this thread, otherwise I'll surely turn into some kind of total anti-religious agnostic misanthrope.

Still, sudden influx of believers was unexpected. If only any of them had any decent arguments...

Originally Posted by sycamorex Ani has revealed my true nature. Yes, I am a bot and I am proud of it.

It would be nice if you released a source code of "sentience kernel", once you feel like it.

Originally Posted by SigTerm I'm going to give up on this thread, otherwise I'll surely turn into some kind of total anti-religious agnostic misanthrope.

If that would be the end result, I encourage you to stay in the thread!

Originally Posted by sycamorex Ani has revealed my true nature. Yes, I am a bot and I am proud of it.

I was wondering if you would react on that!
Apologies Marcin, that was joke, but
also I was a bit apprehensive about your reaction,
actually.

Originally Posted by Anisha Kaul I was wondering if you would react on that! Apologies Marcin, that was joke, but also I was a bit apprehensive about your reaction, actually.

No need to apologise. I might be a piece of code, but I was programmed to have a sense of humour.... humour.... hhhumour.... humourrr... humourr...... WARNING: at kernel/rcutree.c:1275 __rcu_process_callbacks+0x440/0x4cc()
$%%&%£^&^$%£%£$%$$
Fatal Error: Illegal Operation.
Forced shutdown in 3..2..1..

Originally Posted by sycamorex You do not seriously believe that the bible is accurate, do you? Even the church doesn't claim it any longer: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle574768.ece

Of course I believe the Bible. You should qualify your statement, "The Catholic 'church'. . ."

Originally Posted by cascade9 Stasticially I would think that its far more likely that life does exist elsewhere

As advanced as our society actually is scientifically, if it were possible, we'd have discovered it by now. How is it that science has "discerned" the approximate number of galaxies in the universe, and yet apparently knows so very little about so few of the satellites in orbit?

Isn't it quite advanced even to be able to send an electric signal through numerous conduits--copper wire, air, what have you, and convert it to sound, moving pictures, etc. Without natural capacity to travel, but by human or animal footwork, yet we traverse land and sky and space at remarkable velocities, and yet none of "the multitudes of alien life forms out there," have ventured to us, nor we to them? [conclusively]

Don't you see, every effort to connect across this vast expanse of space, or to want to discover your future via astrology and what not, every human attempt at understanding something greater than self, springs from the one good thing that remains in the human soul--and that is to desire God, and to know his truth. Yet people who don't want to bless God suppress that truth--turning to astrology, false religion, etc.

Man, last 2 pages were insane.
Insane than the whole Quran is the word of God thing that almost turned me an atheist from an agnost'.

Gotta find Bob asap.

Originally Posted by cascade9 Joespeh, son of Heli vs Joseph son of Jacob.

Lack of historical knowledge suggests controversy here, but that is easily explained.
Because Joseph the foster father of Jesus WAS the son of Jacob etc., thus leading up to David which was important in connection with Messianic prophecies.
On the other hand, it was not unusual in Jewish genealogies for a man to be called "son" to his father-in-law. Such things happen in several genealogies found in the Bible. Heli, therefore, was Mary's father and Luke's genealogy calling Jesus's father Joseph "son of Heli" is, in fact, Jesus' genealogy from his mother's side.

Therefore, this seeming "contradiction" is rather caused by then existing Jewish customs, than by the writers of the Bible. Neither you nor other critics didn't know this detail, yet you assumed the worst.
However, both genealogies being fully legitimate according to the Law serve their purpose to prove Jesus' descent from David, both through his fleshly mother and his foster father.

This short study reveals that (a) there is no contradiction, (b) both are legitimate genealogies for Jewish man Jesus and (c) notably Jesus is David's heir through both. Which is (d) a good enough confirmation that the prophecy comes true in his case. And (e) it reveals us some curious details about Jewish customs. In all this the Bible proves true in every detail.

There is an important lesson it it, too: not everything that "doesn't make sense from the start" is necessarily wrong. But our lack of knowledge suggests that we at least don't jump to conclusions before doing a good research.
And I don't think it really matters who it is who explains things to you. What is important is that you have enough patience and perseverance to apply this through exercise until you see good results.

Originally Posted by Cultist first example that comes to mind is the Bible's claim that the Earth was created in the beginning, while every bit of geological and astronomical evidence suggests that our sun was already here when the earth began to form.

Actually, the way most people read the Creation is wrong. Gen 1:1--In the beginning God [at once] created the heavens and the earth. Most Scholars of the Hebrew text confirm, "was," in the second verse can accurately be interpreted, "became." So God--at once--created the heavens and earth, replete, like the garden of Eden. When Satan was cast down to the earth (Isaiah 14), the earth became formless and void. Enter the grace of God--who plants a sample of what the earth was, now in Eden, pointing us to something even better, eternal bliss.

Originally Posted by Cultist Then there's the Biblical timeline of 5000-something years between now and the beginning of time, while all evidence points to a much, much older origin.

God created a work-in-process: very real, very ancient minerals, already aged the first day they were created--dinosaur bones, etc.

Originally Posted by Cultist And there's the Biblical passage that was the basis of Galileo's trial, which claims that the sun revolves around the sun (this one is now considered metaphor by most Christians, but the fact remains that its in the Bible).

Maybe the sun is like an electron and the earth is like an atomic nucleus. The sun wants to revolve around the earth, but it shares a bond with at least another planet in our "solar system."

Originally Posted by bluegospel As advanced as our society actually is scientifically, if it were possible, we'd have discovered it by now.

No we wouldn't, because our technologies are in stone age when it comes to space travel. Also, if faster than light travel is impossible, then it is very likely that humans will never meet another lifeform even if the universe is filled with life. The nearest star is "only" 4.6 light years away and with current technologies it takes YEARS for an unmanned probe to reach another planet within solar system. Voyager 1 has been launched in 1977 and it is STILL only 15.6 light hours away from the Sun. The size of solar system itself is about 15 light hours. Size of observable universe is 97 billion light years.

Please do some research before posting another argument like that, because statements like this one show that you haven't done your homework and don't have the idea about size of the universe. There's an application called "Celestia" that should help you understand the situation better. The universe is insanely huge, and its size doesn't "fit" into human mind, plus most of it is empty space. Once you start realizing how big it is, any human-centric religion immediately goes out of the window, because compared to all that entire human history is insignificant. Your town is microscopic when compared to the planet, planet is very small compared to the solar system, solar system is just another speck within the galaxy, and there are thousands of galaxies. No way it ALL has been created just for the human race. And no way the creator of that would care about tiny beings called "humans".

//Quitting the thread for a while, so there will be no further discussion.

Originally Posted by kostya Lack of historical knowledge suggests controversy here, but that is There is an important lesson it it, too: not everything that "doesn't make sense from the start" is necessarily wrong. But our lack of knowledge suggests that we at least don't jump to conclusions before doing a good research.

You should apply this principle when looking at scientific issues rather than making claims without the prerequisite understanding of the science.

Originally Posted by SL00b The "sons of God" could mean any number of things.

Especially to them who don't care a bit about its real meaning in the context...
Well I'm quitting this fruitless discussion, thanks to everyone who cared to answer, as your posts helped me to refresh some bits of very useful knowledge. Hope it will be of some use to you as well.

Originally Posted by bluegospel As advanced as our society actually is scientifically, if it were possible, we'd have discovered it by now. How is it that science has "discerned" the approximate number of galaxies in the universe, and yet apparently knows so very little about so few of the satellites in orbit? Isn't it quite advanced even to be able to send an electric signal through numerous conduits--copper wire, air, what have you, and convert it to sound, moving pictures, etc. Without natural capacity to travel, but by human or animal footwork, yet we traverse land and sky and space at remarkable velocities, and yet none of "the multitudes of alien life forms out there," have ventured to us, nor we to them? [conclusively] Don't you see, every effort to connect across this vast expanse of space, or to want to discover your future via astrology and what not, every human attempt at understanding something greater than self, springs from the one good thing that remains in the human soul--and that is to desire God, and to know his truth. Yet people who don't want to bless God suppress that truth--turning to astrology, false religion, etc.

Again, you've got to be joking. Man has set foot on exactly one extraterrestrial body, set down unmanned probes on exactly one other, sent a handful of other probes flying by most of our other immediately local bodies at altitudes measuring in the hundreds of miles, and you think that constitutes all that can be done to search for life???

Are you really that ignorant of the difficulties surrounding intergalactic travel???

And yet, despite the readily accessible knowledge that there are natural processes for life, the parameters we thought were necessary for life are much wider than we originally thought, and that based on these revised parameters we have viable candidates right here in our solar system that would require significant engineering feats to investigate further... you disregard all of this information completely, and embrace the concept of a human soul, which one should be able to find right here on Earth, yet zero evidence of its existence has been found.

Originally Posted by kostya Lack of historical knowledge suggests controversy here, but that is easily explained. Because Joseph the foster father of Jesus WAS the son of Jacob etc., thus leading up to David which was important in connection with Messianic prophecies. On the other hand, it was not unusual in Jewish genealogies for a man to be called "son" to his father-in-law. Such things happen in several genealogies found in the Bible. Heli, therefore, was Mary's father and Luke's genealogy calling Jesus's father Joseph "son of Heli" is, in fact, Jesus' genealogy from his mother's side. Therefore, this seeming "contradiction" is rather caused by then existing Jewish customs, than by the writers of the Bible. Neither you nor other critics didn't know this detail, yet you assumed the worst. However, both genealogies being fully legitimate according to the Law serve their purpose to prove Jesus' descent from David, both through his fleshly mother and his foster father. This short study reveals that (a) there is no contradiction, (b) both are legitimate genealogies for Jewish man Jesus and (c) notably Jesus is David's heir through both. Which is (d) a good enough confirmation that the prophecy comes true in his case. And (e) it reveals us some curious details about Jewish customs. In all this the Bible proves true in every detail. There is an important lesson it it, too: not everything that "doesn't make sense from the start" is necessarily wrong. But our lack of knowledge suggests that we at least don't jump to conclusions before doing a good research. And I don't think it really matters who it is who explains things to you. What is important is that you have enough patience and perseverance to apply this through exercise until you see good results.

Evidence from a non-theological source, please.

Originally Posted by kostya Especially to them who don't care a bit about its real meaning in the context... Well I'm quitting this fruitless discussion, thanks to everyone who cared to answer, as your posts helped me to refresh some bits of very useful knowledge. Hope it will be of some use to you as well.

Indeed. The problem here is you're reading it with a preconceived notion of what you want it to mean. Otherwise, you wouldn't pretend to know the "real meaning."