quote:
No it's bringing attention to an important issue. And whether or not the story is true, it certainly brings attention to an important issue--namely, Germany's unjust banning of the expression of Nazi beliefs.

Kurt, while I believe in the right of free expression, have you done your homework in history class? Do you know the history of Germany and what the German people have gone through? Do you even know what it is like to live in Germany?
You have every right to express your views, so be it, but walk a mile in their shoes and then come back and let us know what you find.
This in no way slights the Jewish community, I am just trying to get a point across that different countries do things differently.

Enough said

No, I haven't been to Europe yet; but I'd like to visit Europe within the next few years. I didn't read the article (à la Slashdot) because I had already heard about this in, I think, The New York Times.

Actually, I do want the Neo-Nazis and anyone else with extreme and ostracized beliefs to be free and do what they want to the point that they aren't hurting someone else. Most people can figure out that what the Nazis said is wrong and atrocious. I think the Nazis' ideas are absolutely horrible, but I'm not going to say that the government should arrest anyone who believes in them and force them to take re-education classes. If I were to say they should, I'd have no valid reason why the "moral majority" couldn't force me to attend religious classes for being one of those "godless heathens."

If Kurt had researched the story correctly, He would have found out that the man in question, got the dog to perform it's little trick in front of a couple of Police (it made the news here as well).

And he was arrested under Germany's VERY STRICT (and in my book, understandable) anti-Nazi legislation.

regards

John

bigjohn: But as I stated before, that fails to change the point, which is that Germany (wrongly and stupidly) has banned the expression, even nonviolently, of a certain political ideology.

There is no valid reason to ban the peaceful expression of an idea, ever.

quote:
There is no valid reason to ban the peaceful expression of an idea, ever.

Kurt, do you believe in the right of a person to burn a cross?

Guys it's like this.

(I apologize in advance for bringing up this possibly offensive terms. In no way am I imposing sterotypes or ethnic racism.)

People get offended, by everything. If say on television that all the NFL wants a blank QB to do well, I am excercising my right to speak freely. Now I would probably get fired for that, and possibly get sued for some abstract reason. They were offeneded.

If I stand in front of my school, in the auditorium, and did a "Hilter Heil," then why is that wrong? I am excercising my freedom of speech. I would probably get expelled.

Yes, I do. (I am Catholic by the way.)

Just because things are not done the way that they are usually done in your country, that does not make the country stupid nor wrong.

I too believe in freedom of expression BUT not at the price of racial/ideological/religious harmony. It's just not worth it. My country has went through racial conflicts (between the Malay majority and Chinese minority... although the Chinese are biggest minority here), and from the historical footage I've seen regarding this issue, I would not want myself nor my children and grand-children to ever go through what my grandparents have gone through in this period.

Some rights are actually wrong! People should not have the right to incite others to hate, kill, rape or maim. People should not have the right to invade property of others. People should not lynch others who are different racially, religiously, etc.

Want to know the real meaning of stupidity and wrongness? I suggest you watch Bowling for Columbine.

We might want to direct that question to John Ashcroft.

Steve

The key to this one is to look at the content of certain political ideologies and how they effect the people that espouse them and the people in the wider community - due to certain historical circumstances a consensus has obviously grown in German political culture such that it is not healthy or acceptable to have these views allowed in a Public setting - on a more local level there is a demonstrable link between violence against certain groups and the political views held by the perpertrators of that violence.

Kurt M. Weber, forgive me for saying but I thing you are, well things I dare not say here on an public forum.
Put that single brain cell of yours to work and think of the emotions that what that man did would bring up to someone who survived the holocaust. That feeling of hate will in turn lead to violence. And that to even more violence. And gone is your peace and harmony.
And for what? Was it worth it?

To those , who are all up in arms for "Freedom Of Speech" and try to make the argument , one should be allowed to express ones political/philsophycal views in a non-violent way:
There is NO "non-violent way" of expressing National Socialism. Bringing the "Hitler-Gruss" is solely intended to hurt a huge proportion of the population ; Anything not "Arian" ; that accounts for the majority of the human race , in case you haven't realised.
Nazi's are worse than the filthiest vermin I can think of (That includes ticks).

When you grew up in a society , that's shaped and deformed continent-wide by more than a decade of their filthy influence.

My father was a resistance-man and came to be deported to "Bergen-Belsen"(sp?).
He's seen and experienced the worst of this scum firsthand , yet bears no grudges against germans in general.
The first one , bringing the "Hitler-gruss" within his eyesight ,however , will be dead meat within mere seconds , even though dad is well over 80 by now.
And if he doesn't manage , I will.
Nazis have bo right to breathe , let alone speak.

And one more thing , mr. Weber ; Why would I allow freedom of speech to those , who are vehemently opposed to it?
National Socialism does NOT allow Freedom Of Speech.....

I don't have a opinion on this but the story is true although the website on the link has it next to the trials of life of the smelly feet man and a pizza delivery guy.
He wont go to trial for that though - that would be ridiculous (even in germany).
They got enough other things to charge him with.

Four points :-

a) Europe is made up lots of countries in which freedom of speech
differs from country to country
b) Perhaps you should look at the freedom of speech in the USA, I do not think that Dixie Chicks had much freedom of speech
c) At least most Europeans have voting systems that are not unreliable and in some cases getting worse (in a lot of countries not the UK sadly, they also have PR)
d) In the most European countries you can not lose your right to vote by accident as in Florida 2000. What good is American free speech if you can not vote ?

oh now i got it so you are a nazi and want your point of view to be legalized in europe ? or what is the point you cant let people the freedom of speech if they want to kill other people ... they only dont do it as long as those nazis get arrested .... if they wouldnt they would think they can do what they want and would do so ...

you hit it!
my grandfather was even if he was a german also a resitance-man and got deportet to buchenwald also one of the worse kzs, he is dead now but i would attack every fucking nazi for what they have done to him and all those others, they killed over 6 million people in kzs,maybe you "freedom of speech" fans should think about that ... Would you still say nazi need to have the right of free speech if you or a member of your family got killed or arrested by the nazis for just trying to get his/hers freedom of speech???
Nazi never allowed freedom of speech the first thing Hitler did after he was Reichskanzler he tried to illegalize all other parties like communists, socialists, christs ... most of those party members got arrested or killed is that what YOU CALL FREEDOM OF SPEECH!!!,
people like you are annoying me sayin oh no freedom of speech for nazis is a must be WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING THE FACTS OR THE HISTORY MAN BUY A BOOK AND READ SOMETHING ABOUT THIS TIME OR GO TO SCHOOL AGAIN

a because of those blind stupidness very annoyed german

PEACE AND FREEDOM FOR ALL WITHOUT FU**IN NAZIS