Because Shiny Things Are Fun - The New New Windows v Linux Thread

Originally Posted by 273 I'm responding to the idea people reliant upon charity will have old machines.

but you brought up charity!
i'm not talking about charity at all.

Those who can afford to buy their own will have had access to new and second hand 64 bit machines for a good long time so are lumped in with people everywhere who saw things becoming obsolete but didn't plan an upgrade path.

can you say that with confidence for inhabitants of all countries worldwide?
i couldn't.
it certainly holds true for my country, and i have sometimes made the mistake of assuming that it holds true for everyone (posting to LQ for example), but i keep reminding myself.

Originally Posted by ondoho but you brought up charity! i'm not talking about charity at all. can you say that with confidence for inhabitants of all countries worldwide? i couldn't. it certainly holds true for my country, and i have sometimes made the mistake of assuming that it holds true for everyone (posting to LQ for example), but i keep reminding myself.

Charity has been alluded to before in this thread so rather than ignore it I roped it in along with second hand machines suggesting that since only machines over 10 years old are still 32 bit and that XP has been in planned obsolescence for over 10 years even second hand and donated machines should now be 64 bit with something other than XP on them.
Of course I cannot guarantee that every person in the world who has a PC has machines less than 10 years old available to them but I would say that I would be surprised if somebody with the money to access the internet and buy a PC didn't have the opportunity to buy 64 bit non-XP kit.
If you're relying upon a machine that's over 10 years old and running XP I'd say that not being able to get the latest version of Firefox to run could be the least of your worries.
If you've a scenario whereby many people are forced to use ancient machines with XP on as day-to-day web browsers in order to carry out vital tasks then please post it. As it is I am actually trying to think of one myself (hence bringing up the charity) and failing.

Give a person a fish... floppy and they'll try to run GNU\Linux...

Originally Posted by dave@burn-it.co.uk They are a commercial company and like the rest, they want to push their latest product and reduce their costs in supporting old products.

AND they want a platform where they can monitor as many user activities as possible.
AND not to mention the affiliation with law enforcement in case you are suspected of wrong doing according to the terms in their EULA.

"My overall point being that there aren't many excuses
for anyone having [obsolete/old software/hardware]" (#2565)

Wouldn't that include: ANY 'lack':
a non-Tesla, starvation, 'not-good env', ...?

Yup: One is 'responsible' for whatever is 'so' (for themself).
I 'choose' what I have, and don't have. Tho many dispute this.

'minimal' is 'good enough' -for me-; no excuses.

Yup, 'businesses' are 'for [max?] profit'; **'integrity' get 'stretched'**:
M$/Goo/Amzn/etc take (for their profit) as much, *including your 'privacy'*
as they can 'get away' with, as you indulge in their 'shiny new things'.

OT: for $50 *400Mpeople, =$20Bil (0.5% of USA 1yr budget!), /5yr amortization
'we could' GIVE everyone (in USA) an identical decent-basic 2018 Linux laptop
(yes, $50 reasonable for such huge quantity; half that in 4Bil qty below)
But that doesn't address the *20 (8Bil) world population. Tho CLOSE!
(1per2people = 4Bil*$25/5yrPClife = orig/same $20Bil!)
4Bil 'free' PCs: Wow: +1rep for USA; bye M$. (yea: 'dream on...')

There are a hell of a lot of Point of Sale tills that connect to the internet for accounting purposes. Many of those use XP.
I rather suspect that there are also a hell of a lot of numerical control equipment around that were built with XP and still connect to the internet for program update and maintenance. A lot of Hospital Equipment uses XP and is network connected.

Originally Posted by dave@burn-it.co.uk There are a hell of a lot of Point of Sale tills that connect to the internet for accounting purposes. Many of those use XP. I rather suspect that there are also a hell of a lot of numerical control equipment around that were built with XP and still connect to the internet for program update and maintenance. A lot of Hospital Equipment uses XP and is network connected.

Yes, and their IT directors should have been sacked years ago and the money used to come up with an upgrade plan. Smaller firms should amortise assets over a period of time and budget to replace them
Granted, if you air gap then there's no reason not to run older OSs but if your upgrade path didn't include the OS becoming obsolete in over a decade then you shouldn't have been in charge in the first place.
This isn't a neew problem and it's not going to go away.
Maintaining anything requires a tacit assumption that it has a finite life -- for OS rleases a decade doesn't seem bad to me.

Many Own Cell Phones, Few Have Landlines

I am not arguing. Just giving info on why I think the way I think.

Yes, and their IT directors should have been sacked years ago and the money used to come up with an upgrade plan.

Not at all.
You don't and often cannot necessarily have control over what software is used in your hardware devices.
Certainly hospital equipment which can often cost millions of pounds and have to go through years of safety testing cannot easily be replaced.
Not everyone has enough money or the need to throw money at new devices and software every few years, nor should they have to just because script kiddies have nothing better to do with their lives.

Originally Posted by dave@burn-it.co.uk Not at all. You don't and often cannot necessarily have control over what software is used in your hardware devices. Certainly hospital equipment which can often cost millions of pounds and have to go through years of safety testing cannot easily be replaced. Not everyone has enough money or the need to throw money at new devices and software every few years, nor should they have to just because script kiddies have nothing better to do with their lives.

This has little to do with script kiddies and everything to do with planning. No way should a multi-million project depend upon certain kit being available for more than a decade. Plans like that are popular amongst criminals but not so much with those who have a conscience.
it's not even possible to mortgage a home in the UK without insurance on the building and searches regarding the likelyhood of various repairs -- because they often span decades. If you wish to span decades you do due dilligent or you're a moron who needs another job.

And are they going to be any better off using Linux?
The answer to that is going to be: NO!
There are many projects - especially multi million pound ones - that still use XP, mainly because it IS old, tried and tested, and used widely.
If I were to project manage a large project again now, I would most definitely use Windows software rather than Linux software, even admitting that the Linux software may be better written and cheaper. There are things more important than the cost of software. One of those is the number of users of that software and the OS on which it is based.

I know for a fact that some of the software I wrote over twenty years ago is still being used in the banking, aerospace, and construction industries. It wasn't for PCs, but that is irrelevant.

Originally Posted by dave@burn-it.co.uk And are they going to be any better off using Linux? The answer to that is going to be: NO! There are many projects - especially multi million pound ones - that still use XP, mainly because it IS old, tried and tested, and used widely. If I were to project manage a large project again now, I would most definitely use Windows software rather than Linux software, even admitting that the Linux software may be better written and cheaper. There are things more important than the cost of software. One of those is the number of users of that software and the OS on which it is based. I know for a fact that some of the software I wrote over twenty years ago is still being used in the banking, aerospace, and construction industries. It wasn't for PCs, but that is irrelevant.

OK, so, what does the obsolescence of XP and the lack of Firefox on that hardware mean to the project?
If the project still runs, with no M$ help and no reliance upin Mozilla then what's the issue here?
If, however, the project were predicated upon eternal support by M$ and Mozilla then, I hope the instagators were fired.
Remember here I am referring to the dropping of support by M$ of a decade-plus OS and the subsequent dropping of support by Mozilla as well as the more general trend of dropping support for decade-old hardware by more developers.

If your 15 year old system has no issues then you're not moaning and I'm not suggesting your planning was pathetic. If, on the other hand, your plan was to use computer hardware and software for over a decade without any plan to update in case of obsolescence, then XP being made obsolete caused problems I hope your customers had good lawyers to take back the money you conned from them.

It just goes to show how carefully you don't read things. I said that my 15 year old software was NOT for PCs.

And you miss a big point. It is just the SUPPORT and potentially dangerous UPDATES BY MS that is being stopped, for the OS; the software will continue to work as it has for a long time.


Not once did I say that any of them used Mozilla software.

Originally Posted by dave@burn-it.co.uk It just goes to show how carefully you don't read things. I said that my 15 year old software was NOT for PCs. And you miss a big point. It is just the SUPPORT and potentially dangerous UPDATES BY MS that is being stopped, for the OS; the software will continue to work as it has for a long time. Not once did I say that any of them used Mozilla software.

It goes to show how quickly you take offence and percieve a criticism.
I hope I was fairly clear on what I was criticising but my apologies if I was not and I will spell it out again:
If your project works despite any dropped support from M$, Mozilla or, for that matter, anybody else then great.

If, however, your are blaming M$ and Mozilla for dropping support for an OS which was in planned obsolescence over a decade ago for having issues now then I am criticising you for being an idiot.

My simple point being that M$ and Mozilla dropping support for XP and, longer term, 32 bit hardware should not cause issue to anyone who's not either so poor they can't afford the internet or so stupid that they probably should not be using the internet.

Are people just reading the last three posts then deciding to argue now?

I never once complained about dropping support by anyone!

or so stupid that they probably should not be using the internet.

Be very very careful what you say on a public forum especially IF that is meant to imply people still using old equipment are stupid.