Because Shiny Things Are Fun - The New New Windows v Linux Thread

I have to admit I do love windows ...The wildlife around here is great,deer walking across my front lawn,rabbits hopping along, and the birds singing from the tree in front of my home. Oh sh*t you were talking about that damn virus again weren't you??

Originally Posted by MrCode Umm, it's BSD...it's even more geek-centric than Linux. (No offense intended to blahblalblah, BTW)

None taken.

Yes...when using BSDs there is more work involved than linux. But I don't mind, that's how you learn the guts of the system. People who use distros like LFS, Gentoo, Arch, slackware and even crux linux will know what I mean.

Yes...when using BSDs there is more work involved than linux. [...] People who use distros like LFS, Gentoo, Arch, slackware and even crux linux will know what I mean.

<- Notice icon.

I once tried FreeBSD on one of my machines, but I couldn't get it online; it would talk to my main desktop, and I could even ssh back and forth, but I couldn't reach the internet from it. I kinda gave up; now it's got Haiku on it (the FOSS BeOS clone), just because I can.

Originally Posted by RedNeck-LQ None taken. Yes...when using BSDs there is more work involved than linux. But I don't mind, that's how you learn the guts of the system. People who use distros like LFS, Gentoo, Arch, slackware and even crux linux will know what I mean.

Gentoo user here. I agree. I used Mandrake for about 6 months. The only thing I learned was how much better Linux was than windows. When I installed Gentoo, I learned a lot about Linux.

People may hate the install process that Gentoo has but I think it prepares a user for what comes next, running Linux.

Originally Posted by silvyus_06 errrm... yeah.. tell that to a new user and you'll freak 'im out haha

Maybe...

I believe the term new user is a bit of a stereo type. We don't know how tech savvy the new user is.

Of course, if the person is new to an OS, they might be slow at first but soon they'll come up to speed the more time they spend on it. This applies to all operating systems.

Originally Posted by MrCode <- Notice icon.

Yes, I noticed. Cool.

Originally Posted by dalek When I installed Gentoo, I learned a lot about Linux.

Exactly...

Originally Posted by RedNeck-LQ Maybe... I believe the term new user is a bit of a stereo type. We don't know how tech savvy the new user is. Of course, if the person is new to an OS, they might be slow at first but soon they'll come up to speed the more time they spend on it. This applies to all operating systems.

weell yeah.. most of the people have a life.. so they can't read the manuals , it just has to be easy.

i don't know many people who would tinker a problem rather than call tech support..

Originally Posted by silvyus_06 weell yeah.. most of the people have a life.. so they can't read the manuals , it just has to be easy. i don't know many people who would tinker a problem rather than call tech support..

Well, I do have a life - a busy life. All reading and tinkering is done on spare time.

I have nothing against people using windows or any OS. Every OS has their niche and audience.

Originally Posted by silvyus_06 weell yeah.. most of the people have a life.. so they can't read the manuals , it just has to be easy. i don't know many people who would tinker a problem rather than call tech support..

Just have a look how many manuals there are out there for Windows and Windows apps. I would think that many of them are bestsellers.

windows has a nice GUI. people don't *need* to read the manuals, though they *exist*

it makes a person feeel safer with a manual, but who would rather prefer nt to read it.

just take a look at threads in mewbie forum

Originally Posted by jens Using FUD

Reminds me of this article.
My point was that high uptime is not a thing to boast about - you can miss a critical kernel update.
It doesn't matter how quickly it was fixed, if the server's been running for a year (kernel rebuild required a reboot last time I checked).

In my opinion, in discussions as such people have a very "flexible" opinion - they twist the facts to make their opinion look "right". If it happens on windows, it is "bad". If it happens on linux it is "good". Also, I find it that linux users are also prone to spreading the "FUD", but they refuse to acknowledge it (of course). If windows requires reboots, that's bad. However, the fact that linux kernel requires reboots, that ubuntu reboots VERY frequently, isn't mentioned for some reason. Honestly, I hate that. People on "both sides" are always trying to twist the fact to support their own opinion, no matter what - instead of looking for common grounds, improving something, etc.

Originally Posted by orgcandman (again, a bad idea)

I disagree, but...

Originally Posted by orgcandman Additionally, because the software is distributed with the option of just getting the source, I can potentially disable anything I don't want/need on my system.

... but it is a matter of taste. Judging from your replies I'd assume that you're working on some kind of server software (that is distributed along with source code). My job is mostly gamedev-related, so our priorities doesn't match (obviously). I *want*(/need) an inflexible configuration with predetermined capabilities, fixed api, that allows a proprietary distribution without a source code. I want a total control over the code base. You want a flexible code that will install everywhere. Different goals => different requirements.

Originally Posted by orgcandman I'm not going to say that automatic determination of binary dependencies is impossible, but let me give you an example for you to ponder:

I meant to say that database used by package manager should be build automatically, without human intervention, when it is possible (example behavior for the robot: try automatic guessing of dependencies, if impossible, bail and call developer). I'm a bit of idealist, and I think that when things can be automated, they should be, because human time is more expensive than electricity. (The rest is IMO) If package management requires a database build by unpaid volunteers, the system is "wrong", even if people enjoy what they're doing. Even if database is maintained by paid employees, such system is still wrong, because it is imperfect and wastes human time. The most important thing I really disliked about slackware was the fact that distribution have been built from source MANUALLY (no "compile everything" build script) every time during last 10 years. I will not support system with such philosophy, because it doesn't match my "moral" values about software development. IMO, machine is meant to take part of human work away, not introduce more of it.

Originally Posted by orgcandman You and I have two libraries, "libMYLIB.so" and "libYOURLIB.so", sitting in our own /lib/ folders.

You misunderstood me.
I meant to say that correct dependencies (for the database) should/could have been guessed using library filename, library version, and function fingerpring (number/type of arguments should be sufficient, and with C++ names you already have name mangling for that). If automated determination fails, it calls to a human. The program that installs packages doesn't do guessing - it is the job of the tool that builds dependency graph for application database.

Originally Posted by orgcandman I can audit my code to make sure you haven't slipped "void send_all_data_to_china()" into it somewhere.

Binary audition is also possible, you know. Some people claim that with certain amount of practice and the right tool, reading disassembly isn't really different from reading source.

Originally Posted by orgcandman Plus, as I've said before, NONE of the issues you raised are real issues. ...

I disagree about this part, but you might be right about one thing.

Originally Posted by orgcandman As far as the commercial world goes, that is a completely different beast. They're going to develop for whatever the most popular platform is, regardless what kind of APIs you give. You could have the best platform in the world in terms of developer friendliness, and it doesn't mean a thing - because 90% of the population is using something else. Business exists to make money, and unless you present a compelling case why a business makes money moving to linux, it won't happen.

I completely forgot that a commercial entity will always have a "hire army of monkeys" option, and they will be more likely to use it instead of "research a new technology". No matter how horrible platform is, they will develop for it if there is sufficient demand. Which is a pity - it means that I won't see a perfect system I'd like neither on Linux nor on Windows platforms.

Originally Posted by TobiSGD Just have a look how many manuals there are out there for Windows and Windows apps.

There are also books like "Farmville for dummies". I don't think that existence of a manual means much.

Originally Posted by SigTerm There are also books like "Farmville for dummies". I don't think that existence of a manual means much.

If a book is published the publisher thinks that there is a market for that book (he doesn't always have to be right). If there are many manuals out there simply means that there is a need for manuals, even on Windows.

I agree. Also, there are more books on the subject on MS windows and its apps than linux.

I've purchased my fair share of windows,linux and freebsd books online and offline. I love to read

@sigterm; It sounds to me that you would much rather use Windoze, so fine go back to steve and the other idiots that feel you should be paying for the privilege of using (correction RENTING) their operating system...There are a lot of people who are very happy to be free of the constant barrage of viral threats,defragging, registry cleaning etc. I have run computers with XP,vistuh,win 7 as well as more than a few Linux based OSs. I'll be damned if I can justify paying M$ the money they demand for such a bug infested POS system. But then that is my opinion take it or leave it but don't tell me M$ is ANY good.

Originally Posted by tiredofbilkyyaforallican so fine go back to steve and the other idiots that feel you should be paying for the privilege of using (correction RENTING) their operating system...

I think that if a company spent 25 years developing an OS, charging for OS is the right thing to do. Also, telling other people what to do can be hazardous to your health, plus when you start calling people names, somebody will find it offensive.

Originally Posted by tiredofbilkyyaforallican constant barrage of viral threats,defragging, registry cleaning etc.

This is FUD/lie.
There is no constant barrage of viral threats, no constant registry cleaning, and nobody needs defragging on modern hardware - you'll waste your time and get no performance increase.

Originally Posted by tiredofbilkyyaforallican but don't tell me M$ is ANY good.

Microsoft IS "any good", so you'll have to deal with it. Aside from operating system of tolerable quality, microsoft has developed at least two really good software products, one of them is a Visual Studio (the only IDE that managed to become better than Delphi), to which there is still no replacement of comparable quality (I checked every available IDE when I've been looking for Linux alternative, so don't get me started on this one).