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Old 12-28-2008, 08:30 PM   #76
salemboot
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wars and threads


Distributions are similar to Martial Arts.

Somebody takes Tae Kwon Do and extends it to make Hap Kido. We'd call that a fork. Kung-fu / Gung-Fu becomes Jeet Kune do.

You have Wudan mountain forms. One has to ponder why humans must make something their own and try to include as many people into the fold as possible?


Then you have UFC (Ultimate Fighter Championship) where they impose a set of rules and let the styles decide. Which is really a disgrace.

Some distributions just can't cut it. Thai-boxing vs Tae Kwon Do...
Ninjitsu vs Jeet Kune Do. Grecko Roman Wrestling vs Gracie Jiujitsu.

Everything becomes a mixture, KDE mixes with GTK then wxWindows...

Kung-fu has to learn stronger kicks, Karate has to learn Grappling.

I've had a moment of reflection. Now could we classify the Martial Arts along with the distributions? This is easy with the Martial Arts.

Some have positions occupying several spheres of discipline.

1 = Wrestling (Submission, Throwing)
2 = Punching
3 = Kicking
4 = Focus (Controlling the mind / Body)

Apply this to Linux Distributions.

1 = Services ( what comes installed and set up )
2 = Convenience ( Can you work within the environment )
3 = Security ( Is the machine crackable )
4 = Adaptability ( Can the user control the os )
 
Old 12-29-2008, 03:35 AM   #77
GlenDobbs
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Distribution: Slackware plus others
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Both are good, slackware is best in my opinion

3) The entire post is about how "good" Ubuntu is, and has very little to do with Slackware. Other than that it can be implied that Slackware is absolutely inadequate as a distro,

Set up two identical drives or partitions on the same computer and install identical distros of Ubuntu on both. Try to chroot from one of the Ubuntu's to the other and start an x-session on the one you didn't log in to. Then try it with Slackware. Simple is just better. It works. But I have to admit Ubuntu is good in lots of respects also, especially while you are learning how things work
 
Old 12-29-2008, 05:13 AM   #78
gargamel
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Registered: May 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErV View Post
Define "typical user", because I think that "typical user" is a myth frequently used for defense of windows OS.
[...]
--EDIT---
I'm sick of fairy-tales about "typical users", and arguments (about things being easy or not) that aren't backed up by numbers. I hope there one day will be distribution that will follow iterative development scheme used by good commercial software, so all "typical user" crap will finally go away. "iterative development scheme" means:
1) create a product.
2) from the target audience, take number of volunteers.
3) test product on volunteers, gather feedback.
4) analyze feedback
5) using analysis results, modify product.
6) go to #2.
7) repeat forever.
Games developed by valve software allows to get picture of that process using "developer commentaries" mode built into game. I'd recommend to check it.
IMO, both slackware and ubuntu are not using this scheme.

Microsoft runs "usability labs". 1000 users are
interviewed and tested. But it doens't help to
test the users. It's the product, that should
be tested... I guess, that's what you mean.

gargamel
 
Old 12-29-2008, 05:24 AM   #79
gargamel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmhet42 View Post
Sorry, ErV, got no marketing survey for you. Try this:
[...]
AND...defending Microsoft??? Where did that come from? But I'll try; I like their mice.

Really.
The "Natural Keyboard" is good, too. Usually, their hardware is ok. Although I use a Logitech Wave keyboard.

gargamel
 
Old 12-29-2008, 05:34 AM   #80
gargamel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianL View Post
A "typical" or "average" user will just go to a store, buy a computer, and there's a 98% chance that it will have Windows preinstalled. If and when that user becomes aware of alternative OS's, then they may or may not decide to switch, depending on whether they're interested enough.
This seems to be the real situation. I saw an
interview with some representative of MSI, the
maker of mainboards and netbooks. He said, that
the return rate of netbooks with pre-installed
Linux is four times the return rate of those
with MS Windows.

(The following is not from the interview, but
based on my own observations.)

The devices are returned, not because they are
malfunctioned, but just because the system
presents itself differently to the users than
what they are used to, and maybe, because
the "exchange" of software with their friends
seems harder. Many buyers of netbooks still
don't even know, what "open source" means.
Netbook buyers are like video recorder buyers in
the past. The word "programming" just scares
them.

gargamel

Last edited by gargamel; 12-29-2008 at 05:35 AM.
 
Old 12-29-2008, 06:41 AM   #81
gargamel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heliades View Post
"If you want to learn how to use linux use slackware."

Ubuntu is a linux distribution focus'ed on
making things simple and easy for new comers and
experts alike. Basically Ubuntu holds your hand
the entire way. However Slackware is "hardcore"
linux if you want the same functionality as your
friend is getting out of Ubuntu you need to have
quite a bit of linux knowledge. Ubuntu has quite
a bit of popularity these days because its
considered an easy to use linux. Their motto I
believe is "Linux for human beings" instead of
10 years ago when you were considered a super
geek just because you had linux. To sum it all
up I think you made the right choice going with
slack. You will learn more than your friend is
because you are being forced to work these
things out on your own instead of relying on
programs to fix it for you.
The question here is: What is the benefit of
learning this all?

The answer depends on what you want to do with
your computer and what your profession is. It
makes a lot of sense to learn how networks
work, and what a service is. But learning to
activate a service in

Slackware doesn't help me a bit on any other
distributions. In fact, activating services (or
server programs) is pretty much standardized
in the industry. If you know the file system
hierarchy on OpenSUSE, you will find the
relevant parts in /srv also on Red Hat, and you
can usually use the same commands, as both
are LSB compliant. Many Red Hat packages can
be installed on SuSE systems, now, and vice
versa. This wasn't possible in the past.

Slackware is not LSB compliant and therefore you
have to acquire a lot of not-so-portable
knowledge.

Also, what the use in learning how to configure
X.org for a particular graphics adapter
installed in exactly one machine? You can't
reuse the option anywhere. IMHO, it's a wast of
time, having to figure out these things by hand.
For hardware-specific one-time tasks I really
like tools like SuSE's SaX.

On the other hand, netconfig make network
configuration pretty easy. I like that tool. But
then: What do you learn about Linux using it?

When it comes to other Linux capabilities, like
file sharing via NFS, SAMBA, web servers and
such, most distros are similar.

And finally, Slackware in my experience is the
distribution where I learn the least about
Linux. Because, as another poster said, you
only really learn, when you have screwed up your
system yourself.

But Slackware doesn't support this, and once it
is up and running, it runs so well, that I
forget everything I have learned, before I
need it the next time...

Serious: The point of learning is not a good
point. Better arguments are, that Slackware is
flexible, robust, secure (well, there is no
firewall by default, so one could argue about
this...), and very low-maintenance.

But the four best points for it are:

1. Is so well maintained by down-to-earth people
with skills proven over many years.

2. Its community (the people at LQ.org and
elsewhere). You never get
stuck completely, and upgrading a system is as
easy as following the instructions in UPGRADE.TXT.

3. The developers listen. (Well, the Ubuntu and
OpenSuSE and Gentoo developers, do so, too...)

4. Vendor patches are avoided where possible.
This means that you can usually expect that a
program compiled from source will actually run,
as there are no specific requirements or
dependencies introduced by a backport or vendor
patch necessary to get another thing running
before it is mature.
It also is one reason why Slackware is the best
platform for Java development I know, as the
Java package is what Sun provides, not a package
with vendor specific patches and dependencies.
And the Java version is always up-to-date.
This is noteworthy: "Modern" distros like
OpenSuSE fail to include the latest Java SDK,
while a "conservative" oldie like Slackware
has no problem with this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heliades View Post
[...]
Slackware keeps to the linux traditions more
than Ubuntu does.
What do you mean by that? And what's the
benefit?

[...]


Quote:
Originally Posted by Heliades View Post
I've been using linux since 1998 and ever since
then Slackware and Debian have pretty much paved
the way as far as distributions go.
Much of the development of the kernel, KDE and
Gnome has been driven by Red Hat and SuSE. While
Slackware and Debian are the oldest distros
still in service, and "paved the way" in the
early days, they are now parasites, not
innovators. Which is exactly what makes them so
good as they integrate new stuff only when it
has matured and is stable. But others are
lighting the way, today, and Red Hat and SuSE
are doing a great job, in my opinion, and use
the money they get from customers like IBM,
Oracle and, yes, Microsoft quite well to
the benefit of all of us.

[...]Learn the CLI like the back of your hand.
Get your sound/hardware all working and learn
your way around system settings and config files
before you go into a distribution that does a
lot of that for you.[/QUOTE]

As I said above, there's no use in learning, how
to configure hardware, except you are a PC
technician or OEM employee. You will usually not
be able to use such knowledge ever again elsewhere. I agree, of course, that learning the
CLI is useful. But this is possible on any
distro, with Ubuntu being a special case due to
their sudo philosophy (which is a smart concept
for making the lifes for end-users easier on
single-user machines; which is what most Linux
machines are, actually).

It certainly makes sense to understand
client-server concepts, to learn about secure
tunneling with SSH and such, but this is
possible on most *nix systems, and nowadays to a
large degree even on MS Windows. If you want.
The difference is just, that you don't have to,
if not.

Being so sceptic regarding Slackware, why do I
still stick with it and recommend it, you may
ask?

The reason is simply, that it saves me a lot of
time. As has been said by some other poster,
software updates come in only as security
patches for "stable", and are installed quickly
with two simple calls of slackpkg. I am
not "bombed" with lots of updates, I can rely on
a certain (very high!) level of quality assured
for every new release, and I almost just can
forget about the system, once it is installed
and running.

So, in a way, Slackware keeps Ubuntu's promises.

But, as I have said in many posts before, a
third distro that I really like is OpenSuSE.
It's follows a different philosophy than Slackware and Ubuntu, and has, e. g., excellent
hardware support and localization. In the recent
11.1 release package management has become
fast, again, at last, so most of the problems
with the 10.x series are problems of the past.
But having said that, you see the advantage of
Slackware: Distros like OpenSuSE are changing
fundamental parts of the system, "paving
the way" and adopting new development of the
Linux world very soon,mostly to the benefit of
the users, they also lack the last bit of
consistency, sometimes. E. g., when SuSE
integrated HAL and D-BUS and udev and USB device
automounting, this was quite leap forward for
end-users used to such comfort on MS Windows.
But it worked well only in simple scenarios and
had problems when you removed and reconnected
the same device.

When Slackware finally followed with its
integration of HAL and D-BUS and udev, it was a
much more consistent, complete and mature
integration.

What I am going to say is, that the philosophy
of Slackware is to offer only functionality that
is proven and can be provided with a
minimum of quality.

The quality of OpenSuSE is usually very good,
too, but they accept compromises that you will
never see being accepted in a Slackware
release, in order to make something "available"
for the user.

But don't get me wrong: The result aren't show-stoppers, just little weaknesses or
inconsistencies, that hardly make the system
unattractive or unusable. Usually, it's no
problem to live with them. But sometimes,
like the slow package management in OpenSuSE
10.x, they can be annoying on a system used
daily, and these are things that you cannot
fix yourself. I guess the same holds for Ubuntu.

Both are, BTW, equally stable on servers, in my
experience. Which means, they don't ever crash,
except due to a hardware failure.

gargamel

Last edited by gargamel; 12-29-2008 at 06:57 AM.
 
Old 12-29-2008, 07:24 AM   #82
gargamel
Senior Member
 
Registered: May 2003
Distribution: Slackware, SLAX, OpenSuSE
Posts: 1,601

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As some other poster said, I too recommend the profiles at
Distro Watch.

gargamel
 
Old 12-29-2008, 01:47 PM   #83
everal
Member
 
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Location: Zona Leste, Sao Paulo, Brazil, South America, Milk Way
Distribution: Slackware 10.1
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Smile Once more, with feeling...

Hei,

I want say here again what I already said about some... let's say 'stuff' about slack....

But I can tell you that Slack is more to people who want to learn more, and exactly to people who know something, because you will always be in need of reading and researching with you use Slack...

I have a Slack in my desktop and a Kubuntu in my notebook. I haven't choice, I couldn't install Slack at the notebook.

Life is a lot more easier with all those Kubuntu stuff... with Slack somethings are a pain in the ass... BUT it is WORTH.

If I could do it again I'd chose a Slack at desktop and a Debian at notebook.

And two days ago, I must confess, I did it.. I installed slapt-get ( http://software.jaos.org/BUILD/slapt...Q.html#slgFAQ4 ) and I am already using it... so instead of a battle every and each time I want to install something, I can just get a slack...
 
Old 12-30-2008, 05:15 PM   #84
Penthux
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No right, no wrong... just Linux

There's no right or wrong about which Linux distro you prefer. It's like religon, or music, or sport, or cars, or food, or (the list goes on forever)...

You do what you feel is right and best for yourself and others. For example, I love Slackware and wouldn't really consider any other distro for my own personal use. I love the learning curve and the education. The hands-on approach with CLI and actually being involved in what I'm doing (or trying to do) gives me a great sense of purpose and achievement.

On the other hand, people have asked me in the past which distro is best to get involved in, usually when the user has only experienced Windows. Most of the time I tell them to go for Ubuntu, purely because it has an environment as easy to get to grips with as Windows itself and the pointy/clicky aspect will be very familiar to them. I usually say "If you want to just use Linux for the experience or being able to say you use Linux instead of Windows, go for Ubuntu. Alternatively, if you want to REALLY learn about Linux and give yourself the education of a lifetime, go for Slackware." If I had a dollar for everytime I heard them say "I'll go with Ubuntu... Slackware is too hard and only for hardcore geeks!" I'd be a very very wealthy man indeed.

We can all pick fault with everything everybody else is doing. Ultimately, if you're happy with Slackware stick with it. If not, try something else. In fact, try ALL the Linux distro's you have time to play around with. There's a wealth of software and information out there to suit everyones needs and that's only going to get better in the future. :>
 
Old 02-28-2009, 09:38 PM   #85
TwinReverb
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Registered: Sep 2008
Location: Misawa AB, Japan
Distribution: Slackware
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IwannaSlack View Post
-Able Use Multiple Moniters.(we both use 2 monitors or more)
-Have all sound & audio drivers working
-Network adapters usable Wireless & LAN
-Able to install and uninstall programs at will
-Customizable
-An Active memeber on the network
(we both have networks at our house's if you don't use networks then I guess this won't really matter much but it is usefull for file sharing purposes)
-Flash and plugins for Firefox, PDF (this way you can watch youtube videos and view some other sites that have flash or videos)
-Some sort of Open Office or Word so that we can do our school work
-As far as linux goes we both said we were going to get Comliz & Whine
-Also have our music & videos up on Linux as well.
-Security
-Also keep the system up to date.
-Able to Back up files
-Keyboard and mouse Fully function including smart buttons.
-Also something unique that sets your system apart.
-Fully function bittorent hehe it has its uses.
Old post, yes, but I am bored, so I'll respond
- Slack can use multiple monitors, assuming the drivers themselves can handle it. Some intel chipsets have "auto" switching, which basically means you do it their way or not at all. I can run a projector with mine (Intel 945GM) and my last one (Intel 865GM) but I had to start the computer with it connected (Intel's fault).
- Slack can use any audio that's in the Linux kernel, so it's fine there. A minute of configuration with programs works wonders, and you don't have the issues other distributions sometimes have with pulse audio, etc.
- Slack can use any wired/wireless that's in the Linux kernel, and even more if you want to use an emulator.
- You can [un]install programs at will with Slack (and the user base now has much more in the way of -contrib). You will never experience dependency hell in the RPM sense.
- Slackware is much more customizable because it's more vanilla.
- It can be an active member on the network (duh).
- You can install flash easily (even as a user) and it works on Slackware. PDF isn't a plugin: it's simply telling Firefox "hey, use kpdf for PDF files".
- Slackware comes with KOffice, but there's already a package of OpenOffice in our "-contrib".
- Good misspelling of "Wine" there My sentiments exactly. But I know people who use them on Slackware, so that works fine.
- I listen to all my music and watch all my videos on Slackware.
- Securing Slackware is very easy. For example, there's a README that describes how to have a fully encrypted hard drive install of Slackware if you want to go to that great a length.
- As any distro, Slackware has updates when needed. Rsync works good. Also, slackware-current is the "testing" area of Slackware, but I've actually used it for a long time before. Just as stable, 99% of the time.
- Backing up files is pathetically easy with Slack. Use rsync.
- Smart buttons work here, you just need to find the key codes (xev). I did and they work great, just takes a few minutes.
- Slackware is very different, and can be tailored to you easily. It has tools that help you do your job, also, like wicd (now a part of /extra).
- Slackware has bittorrent and ktorrent in /extra, and they work great.
 
Old 03-01-2009, 10:12 AM   #86
akuma624
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Noobuntu ... Slackesperience

I'm sure other have already posted a similar observation - but slack is for the more experienced bunch and Ubuntu is just the "gateway" drug into the world of the penguin ....
 
Old 03-19-2009, 11:34 PM   #87
salemboot
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Xorg automation is a major suck right now.

Latest ubuntu picked up my external no problem.

And God will they ever get that GEM crap worked out for the intel chipsets. My ut2004 looks like poo.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinReverb View Post
Old post, yes, but I am bored, so I'll respond
- Slack can use multiple monitors, assuming the drivers themselves can handle it. Some intel chipsets have "auto" switching, which basically means you do it their way or not at all. I can run a projector with mine (Intel 945GM) and my last one (Intel 865GM) but I had to start the computer with it connected (Intel's fault).
- Slack can use any audio that's in the Linux kernel, so it's fine there. A minute of configuration with programs works wonders, and you don't have the issues other distributions sometimes have with pulse audio, etc.
- Slack can use any wired/wireless that's in the Linux kernel, and even more if you want to use an emulator.
- You can [un]install programs at will with Slack (and the user base now has much more in the way of -contrib). You will never experience dependency hell in the RPM sense.
- Slackware is much more customizable because it's more vanilla.
- It can be an active member on the network (duh).
- You can install flash easily (even as a user) and it works on Slackware. PDF isn't a plugin: it's simply telling Firefox "hey, use kpdf for PDF files".
- Slackware comes with KOffice, but there's already a package of OpenOffice in our "-contrib".
- Good misspelling of "Wine" there My sentiments exactly. But I know people who use them on Slackware, so that works fine.
- I listen to all my music and watch all my videos on Slackware.
- Securing Slackware is very easy. For example, there's a README that describes how to have a fully encrypted hard drive install of Slackware if you want to go to that great a length.
- As any distro, Slackware has updates when needed. Rsync works good. Also, slackware-current is the "testing" area of Slackware, but I've actually used it for a long time before. Just as stable, 99% of the time.
- Backing up files is pathetically easy with Slack. Use rsync.
- Smart buttons work here, you just need to find the key codes (xev). I did and they work great, just takes a few minutes.
- Slackware is very different, and can be tailored to you easily. It has tools that help you do your job, also, like wicd (now a part of /extra).
- Slackware has bittorrent and ktorrent in /extra, and they work great.
 
Old 03-20-2009, 03:14 AM   #88
TwinReverb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salemboot View Post
Xorg automation is a major suck right now.

Latest ubuntu picked up my external no problem.

And God will they ever get that GEM crap worked out for the intel chipsets. My ut2004 looks like poo.
Funny post, for the following reasons:

1) There is no Xorg automation other than what Xorg itself (upstream) has. There's no "suck" about it: it's nonexistent. Slackware is very "do it yourself", and it's not hard to do that if you can use Google.

2) The Intel drivers in Slackware are stock.

You can't expect Slackware to do everything for you like Ubuntu does. Their design philosophies are totally different.

Where Slackware may "fail" in your book due to lack of automation or basically doing everything for you, Ubuntu can fail in that sometimes it does things for you the wrong way. I have helped people in such circumstances fix what Ubuntu or whatever distribution failed to automatically do something correctly because I know how things work "under the hood", where few of the "automated distro" users I've met have. (However, my experience is limited because I am only one person.)

This is not meant to be a Slackware versus Ubuntu war. He asked some questions, so either answer them or shut up. Since the first page of this thread probably did more than enough to answer his questions, there really is no need for the rest of the thread to continue.
 
Old 03-20-2009, 09:44 PM   #89
free2view
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Location: SoCal, USA
Distribution: currently figuring that out...
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4 days ago I came upon Slax...wow!! what an introduction to the world of Linux...as a result I want to install Linux on my hard drive...that brings me to this site and this thread...a lot can be said about an exchange like this one...from this newbie's prospective it has been extremely informative..."thanks you" to everyone's contribution...nu_b
 
Old 03-20-2009, 10:03 PM   #90
hitest
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Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by free2view View Post
4 days ago I came upon Slax...wow!! what an introduction to the world of Linux...as a result I want to install Linux on my hard drive...that brings me to this site and this thread...a lot can be said about an exchange like this one...from this newbie's prospective it has been extremely informative..."thanks you" to everyone's contribution...nu_b
Welcome to the official Slackware forum, free2view! If you're thinking about installing Linux then Slax is an excellent place to start. You will be able to familiarize yourself with Linux using that distro. When you're ready to take the plunge and install a version of Linux take the time to read the documentation provided for your distro. I'm a bit biased, but, I think that Slackware is an excellent version of Linux. Slackware is stable, secure, and runs very fast on older hardware and high-end Intel/AMD boxes.
 
  


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