Want to debate the merits of different Software Development source language choices?

Sergei Steshenko · 03-07-2013, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gerry Rzeppa

Bummer.

Actually, that is something we're willing to accept -- on the grounds that such a system will give us philosophical and psychological insight into how and why humans misunderstand and argue with each other, etc. One of our goals is to produce an "apparent (as opposed to 'artificial') intelligence" that will pass (among other things) the infamous Turing test, like the infamous HAL-9000; a machine that always understood and never argued would fail on this point. In short, our goal is not merely to understand computers, but to better understand the people who build and use them.

But can we agree that unnecessary obscurity and undue complexity are also serious hindrances to progress? I read the other day of a kid who wanted to program a little app for his iPhone but who was discouraged from doing so by the daunting nature of Apple's Objective C development environment; thinking that was his only alternative, he gave up and went out to play baseball. It's one thing to require discipline and commitment in a student; it's another thing altogether to starve babies because they haven't the teeth for strong meat.

Though we, as a species, have a terrible habit of making it much harder than necessary.

And yet, paradoxically, learning happens most effectively when the student enjoys what he's doing and is hardly aware that he is studying at all.

I would say, rather, that "if you, children, don't find something creative that so thrills you that you are willing to chase after it with all your heart and soul and mind and strength, you will be duped, manipulated, abused, exploited, enslaved".

Indeed; As C. S. Lewis points out, it is only from below that we ever hear the fatal words, "I'm as good as you".

Ah, here I must disagree. As Solomon put it, "I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all" (Ecclesiastes 9:10-12). And while it may appear, at times, that life is little more than survival of the ruthless, I'm persuaded that Eternal Life is a gift given to those who strive to love God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength -- and (subsequently) their neighbors as themselves.

Incidently, that's one reason why I hold nothing against you for your rather severe treatment of me and my ideas on this blog -- I'm convinced that you're being no harder on me than you are on yourself. But I nevertheless suspect that there are "more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of in your philosophy" and thus feel that you may be a bit premature in the intensity of the love you have directed toward me to date

I think you fundamentally misunderstand life and the world.

A few reminders:

1) unless you grow your own food, you are not free (me neither, but at least I have some experience in growing food and chicken) ;
1a) my friend in Ukraine, also with Master's in physics, owns 0.25 hectare of land and a house on it - in addition to his nice house in town on 0.06 hectare - the 0.25 hectare is "just in case";

2) in the middle ages only those who could afford a small army to defend themselves were considered to be free;
2a) even if you grow your own food, you need to be able to defend it and yourlself.

Sorry, but I am not at all interested in modern American mythology.

And regarding

Quote:

One of our goals is to produce an "apparent (as opposed to 'artificial') intelligence"

- I don't care about your goals. Really. Unless you can show me that human language does not lead to misunderstanding, there is nothing to talk about. If you wish, I much like dealing with computers because in the absence of bugs on the way they do what I need and what they are supposed/expected to do - unlike humans.

And I like dealing with humans for their wit, sense of humor, ability to laugh at human nature and languages. "Why do Americans park in driveways and drive in parkways ?".

I do not see any reasons for your to be created "apparent" intelligence to be any better than the one of a typical indoctrinated and brainwashed person. If so, what's the point ?

On the US educational system - total disaster. I suggest to read "U.S. ECONOMIC GROWTH OVER? FALTERING INNOVATION CONFRONTS THE SIX HEADWINDS" - http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/113...n6jrc23rfloqcm - 23 pages. On page 21:

Quote:

Regarding the educational headwind (2), successive American governments have attempted to find solutions to inadequate educational outcomes at the elementary and secondary level, including “No Child Left Behind” and “Race to the Top,” without as yet achieving convincing improvements, especially for low-income children. Less attention has been paid to cost inflation in higher education, which has resulted in part from an arms-war-like explosion of expenditure by many universities, private and public alike, to raise their league table ranking by building ever more lavish laboratory and athletic facilities.It is headwind (1), the demographic turnaround, that seems on the surface to be the most inevitable but is could potentially be counteracted. The retirement of the baby boomer scauses hours per capita to decline and thus reduces growth of income per capita relative to productivity. A method to raise hours per capita is to increase the ratio of those of working age to those of retirement age. As a matter of arithmetic, this could be achieved by a more rapid inflow of immigration.One potential option would be unlimited immigration of high-skilled workers. As Steve Jobs is reported to have told Barack Obama shortly before he died, “we should staple a greencard to the diploma of every foreign worker who attains a graduate degree in science or engineering.”

- to me it's probably the best evidence how much the US educational system is screwed up.

Again, read "The deliberate dumbing down of America". To me you and your ideas/approaches look like the ones that have already led to the disaster.

Gerry Rzeppa · 03-07-2013, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sergei Steshenko

I think you fundamentally misunderstand life and the world. A... reminder...unless you grow your own food, you are not free

What seems to be lacking in your world view is balance. There's a sense of independence that comes with growing one's own food, to be sure; but there's a different kind of satisfaction that results from cooperation with others. Case in point: My neighbor builds a tractor, and I use it to grow food for the both of us. We're now, obviously, less independent because we're depending on, and trusting in, each other: but we're also able to accomplish things that neither of us would have the time to accomplish alone. And we're experiencing the joys of friendship, which is impossible alone. In other words, it seems to me that real satisfaction is discovered only when independence and dependence are properly balanced.

It has been said that all great engineering (including software engineering, I presume) is a balance between competing objectives; I believe the same is true of life in general. Do you really classify that view as a "fundamental misunderstanding of life and the world"?

Now to return to the subject of this thread: It is my belief that certain programming languages (like Lua and Oberon and Starset and, yes, Plain English) do a better job of balancing the competing objectives that present themselves to the language designer than others (like C++ and Objective C and Java). And that's really all I'm trying to say.

bigearsbilly · 03-08-2013, 02:25 AM

I was only joking about religion and politics.

PrinceCruise · 03-08-2013, 02:39 AM

^They took you seriously bro.

Regards.