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The amount of existing rules, and the way they are getting handled, is the main reason i am not here anymore (you might wonder why i know about the thread. I will tell you: someone pointed me to it).
Free speech (as the most basic form of freedom) is just a silly dream in the Linux world, it seems.
And no, i don't like leet speak. That is not the point.
I for one am out here.
You seem to be a bit misguided as to your definitions.
Want free speech? You've got it....you're free to post whatever you'd like. Rest assured that others are also free to NOT like it, and tell you about it. Don't like this forum and its rules?? You're also free to join another one, and (building on your "Free speech is a silly dream in the Linux world"), use Linux to start your OWN forum, where you have your OWN rules. Sort of like saying "I like to walk around naked, but you won't let me do it at the mall! You're taking away my freedom!". No...there are rules when you start to interact with others. Break them, and there are consequences...don't like them? Go elsewhere with different rules.
Freedom lets people do what they like...if the moderators/owners of this forum decide to do it, that's THEM, exercising THEIR freedom. It does not stop you from having freedom with what YOU like, on YOUR terms.
Ok, so I'm going to play a bit of devil's advocate here. Which means I'm sure to tick some people off. But before I do, I've never liked SMS/l33t-speak in messages. I find it personally annoying rather than anything else. Having said that, it's the perfect springboard into my devil's advocate business...
TobiSGD and TB0ne:
Both of you mentioned that this abbreviated writing adds a technical problem: problems searching for threads. I'm not sure I agree.
Do either of you have any examples? Most of the SMS/l33t-speak I have encountered is informal, personal abbreviation: "u" or "y" or "any1" or "qns" (and before the grammar nazis show up, serialized "or"s with no commas is a valid usage ). I cannot think of any search that would fail to yield reasonable results because of those abbreviations. They simply are not meaningful search terms. Nobody should be searching for "you" in regards to a Samba, partitioning, distribution selection, or some other technical question. 100% of the time "you" will be a useless search term. The user should be searching for something else.
Related to that, what are the chances that a responder would continue to exclusively use the same abbreviations? If a response in the thread uses proper, full names or commonly recognized abbreviations for the concepts/topics, there is no problem with searching at all. The responder's message will satisfy the user's search terms.
So, I just don't see "it'll break searching" as a legitimate concern. More likely, "break searching" is being offered as a way to avoid directly saying the real objection: that it's a subjective, personal-taste objection.
OK, may be you got me with that.
Quote:
On another front, I think the Law of Internet Natural Selection is well-suited to this. If a user uses SMS/l33t-speak in their post, and the reading population doesn't like it, the readers should pass by the thread. Don't respond. End of story. If you respond with a solution, then the SMS/l33t-speak really doesn't bother you much. If you respond with nothing but "don't use SMS/l33t-speak" then you are arguably violating one of LQ's rules by posting a response with "nothing constructive."
I disagree. When I answer "don't use SMS/l33t-speak" then you may be right, but if I answer "If you use SMS/l33t-speak your thread can drive away people that possibly are able to answer your questions, so it would be better to use proper English." then I am helping the OP to get (better) answers and therefore am constructive.
Quote:
On another front, I think the Law of Internet Natural Selection is well-suited to this. If a user uses SMS/l33t-speak in their post, and the reading population doesn't like it, the readers should pass by the thread. Don't respond. End of story. If you respond with a solution, then the SMS/l33t-speak really doesn't bother you much. If you respond with nothing but "don't use SMS/l33t-speak" then you are arguably violating one of LQ's rules by posting a response with "nothing constructive."
If everyone follows that basic approach, the question asker is limiting his/her pool of available expertise by using the abbreviated text. If someone comes along that is comfortable with the SMS/l33t-speak and provides a reply, then so be it. Otherwise, the thread will languish and eventually be archived (preferrably deleted because a no-answer question is a waste of space).
If a user is incapable of walking away from a thread with SMS/l33t-speak, invests the time to decipher the text, determines the solution, posts a response, and then complains about the SMS/l33t-speak in a thread such as this, then the problem isn't with the SMS/l33t-speak--it's with the user. What the user is really upset with is their obsessive-compulsive nature to answer any-and-all questions.
That is ignoring the case when not the question, but the answer is not using proper English. Have a look at this post (sorry, chrism01): http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...0/#post4085608
I would think that it is possible that people that are not very good in English can really have problems to understand that.
You seem to be a bit misguided as to your definitions.
Want free speech? You've got it....you're free to post whatever you'd like. Rest assured that others are also free to NOT like it, and tell you about it. Don't like this forum and its rules?? You're also free to join another one, and (building on your "Free speech is a silly dream in the Linux world"), use Linux to start your OWN forum, where you have your OWN rules. Sort of like saying "I like to walk around naked, but you won't let me do it at the mall! You're taking away my freedom!". No...there are rules when you start to interact with others. Break them, and there are consequences...don't like them? Go elsewhere with different rules.
Freedom lets people do what they like...if the moderators/owners of this forum decide to do it, that's THEM, exercising THEIR freedom. It does not stop you from having freedom with what YOU like, on YOUR terms.
Like said: that is what i did.
Not sure why you need to repeat that and offer it as an advice i would not know about yet.
Distribution: Debian /Jessie/Stretch/Sid, Linux Mint DE
Posts: 5,195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD
That is ignoring the case when not the question, but the answer is not using proper English. Have a look at this post (sorry, chrism01): http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...0/#post4085608
I would think that it is possible that people that are not very good in English can really have problems to understand that.
And I think there is a difference between someone who asks something in a one-liner: hi ppl plz hlp me w/ sln fr instllng iptables or firewall f u wsh cuz i cnt do hlp me urgnt!!!! (typically someone with < 5 posts) and someone who has thousands of posts and using some abbreviations to speed up writing long answers.
Define proper English. What particular version do you want everyone to use? Received Pronunciation? East London English? BBC English? Estuarine English (from the Thames Valley)? Scottish English? Australian English? American English? I can keep going but I am just trying to show there is no universally proper English and what is spoken/written in one English speaking country can be difficult to understand in another.
Frankly, I think this kind of argument introduces a red herring through reductio ad absurdum. There are norms of behavior everywhere; one is free to violate those norms and in turn to pay a price for the violation:
If you want to frequent a biker bar, you're going to dress as a biker or pay the price.
If you are going out to a fancy restaurant, you dress up. Your definition of "dressing up" may be different in details from my idea of dressing up, but our notions likely have more in common than in difference. If you show up in shorts, a torn smelly tee shirt, and flip-flops, don't be surprised if someone at the restaurant suggests returning when more appropriately attired. A quick look though the window will tell you what constitutes "appropriate."
Note I'm not a big fan of rules for rules sake, but I honestly see no harm in letting new visitors know this guideline before someone corrects them in a public post.
I don't see this proposal as a threat to diagram posters' sentences, but as a request that they dress themselves up in tee shirt and jeans, rather than tank top and speedos.
The technical nature of the forum almost demands that clear posts to be presented. Trying to decode both the problem and the message may be difficult for some (me). It seems to limit the field of people who are willing to help the original poster.
Distribution: Debian Wheezy, Jessie, Sid/Experimental, playing with LFS.
Posts: 2,900
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankbell
Frankly, I think this kind of argument introduces a red herring through reductio ad absurdum. There are norms of behavior everywhere; one is free to violate those norms and in turn to pay a price for the violation:
I don't disagree with you Frank, I'm just pointing out what is one persons correct English is another persons gutter talk. Red herring or not we have people in LQ who believe they speak and write English better than others and in General (i.e. (or should that be id est) not technical areas of LQ (or should I say Linux Questions)) have put other people down for what they perceive to be incorrect English when in fact they themselves didn't have a clue. To sum this up, I would say yes to "correct English" or that the person at least makes a best effort attempt in using correct English in technical fora but in places like General don't be a snob.
Define proper English. What particular version do you want everyone to use? Received Pronunciation? East London English? BBC English? Estuarine English (from the Thames Valley)? Scottish English? Australian English? American English? I can keep going but I am just trying to show there is no universally proper English and what is spoken/written in one English speaking country can be difficult to understand in another.
I speak with an Oldham accent, but I don't write with one. Except for now:
Ah speak wi an Oldham accent, bur ah don't write wi one.
Distribution: Debian, Red Hat, Slackware, Fedora, Ubuntu
Posts: 13,602
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No decision has been made yet, but it's possible the best solution is altering the current English-only rule, with a modifier explaining the benefits of clear wording. Something along the lines of:
Quote:
All member-created content should be in English. This allows our moderators to ensure all content complies with all LQ rules. We recommend you attempt to avoid sms/l33t speak in the technical fora, as it may make it more difficult for other members to assist you.
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). I cannot think of any search that would fail to yield reasonable results because of those abbreviations. They simply are not meaningful search terms. Nobody should be searching for "you" in regards to a Samba, partitioning, distribution selection, or some other technical question. 100% of the time "you" will be a useless search term. The user should be searching for something else.
