homework response

unSpawn · 11-10-2008, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archtoad6

I agree that any thoughtful Q (a la Raymond & Moen), homework or not, deserves an answer.

Often people don't know how to ask questions or provide enough information to help us help them. Given your previous statement your MO would be to ignore them. Not that it would help in all cases, but if nobody tells them they could get a better response if they try to follow to a few simple rules, then what are we giving them?
Rotten fish or fishing rod?

jeremy · 11-10-2008, 03:29 PM

The bandwidth (in the context of bits pushed) is certainly not an issue at this time, but I can't see any benefit to locking these kinds of threads. While we only ban/remove mass spammers, you can individually add any member to your ignore list if you think it would improve your LQ experience. In the end, while we try to make things as smooth as possible for the dedicated members whose answers make this site useful, the outright arbitrary closing of threads just doesn't seem in line with the LQ way of thinking. I'm happy to hear further feedback on the topic.

--jeremy

trickykid · 11-10-2008, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by salasi

Doesn't that raise the point that the second is just as against the rules as the first (although is given more discretion)?

For me, anyone who simply reproduces a question that they have been asked, without any sign of thought on their part, doesn't deserve an answer. OTOH, anyone who asks a question that they've obviously thought about (e.g., 'I've understood this bit, but just can't get my head around this other bit'... or 'I've googled for x but it doesn't come up with anything relevant') is more worthy of spending time on.

OK, this is a bigger change; it seems to me that the majority of posts don't have enough info, as originally posted. The decision that responders take is whether the situation is best handled by a "You've told me enough to answer this bit, but you haven't told me enough to answer this bit" answer and a "come up with a whole load more information, or I won't bother" one. At present, the situation is open for everyone to make their own judgement call on that, and yours will probably be different from mine.

The situation changes if many people can block threads and whether this a good or a bad thing is still open to question. That would reduce the bandwidth and would reduce the noise (both good), but it might just be restrictive enough to make the whole thing unworkable.

On a related subject, why do so many people seem to post without reading the forum rules? It should be obvious that homework is verboten, but that still gets posted as do occasional 'help me break the security of my employer's computers' requests.

You'd think that if people had read the rules and were trying to slip these under the radar, they'd at least be making an effort to disguise what they are doing? (Not that doing that would be a big advantage for the forum...)

Actually the rules should be interpreted as they are clearly stated. Homework questions aren't against the rules, just don't expect members to give you the direct answer. There's nothing in the rules that says people can't post homework questions.

PTrenholme · 11-10-2008, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trickykid

Actually the rules should be interpreted as they are clearly stated. Homework questions aren't against the rules, just don't expect members to give you the direct answer. There's nothing in the rules that says people can't post homework questions.

And, in fact, some of us -- like me -- actually learn something from some of the homework questions.

I just posted a reply to a question in the General forum which "smelled" like a homework question, but one of the replies suggested a solution I wouldn't have considered.

dhanyaelizabeth · 01-03-2009, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinniped

How about tagging things with an icon - like those thumbs-up and thumbs-down ones? A dungheap icon would ruin the look of the site; maybe a black hole icon would do - or a skull and crossbones - or just a big red 'X'. That way anyone who really wants to waste time can still look and respond. I think it's fun coming up with useless answers to homework questions.

Now this is what I call a "colorful" and "imaginative" solution.

Linux Archive

johnsfine · 01-03-2009, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Do not expect LQ members to do your homework

I never understood that rule. Is it literal? Are you regulating thoughts (what people "expect") rather than posts?

Quote:

Originally Posted by salasi

Doesn't that raise the point that the second is just as against the rules as the first

Most of this thread indicates others here don't share any common understanding of what that rule means. Many of us seem to share a common understanding of what the homework rule ought to be and we operate as if that is the actual rule.

I wish I had a more concise way to phrase that homework rule, but maybe it needs to be clearer in the LQ rules even if it isn't concise:

Don't ask for homework help before trying to figure it out yourself. Give specifics about what you tried and which parts of the problem you don't understand.

When answering homework questions never do the homework. Only explain things about the specific parts that seem to be the problem and only after the OP has shown enough effort that you can tell which parts are the problem.

makyo · 01-03-2009, 10:28 AM

Hi.

From my understanding, there is no rule here regarding homework. That's why I like the clarifying text suggested by johnsfine. Of course, there are many posters who never read rules / guidelines. If the guidelines are easily available so that a link can be posted, such posters could be notified or reminded. The ease and conciseness are important, and are among the reasons I stopped pointing people to Eric Raymond's article on how to ask questions -- it has excellent points, but questioners are usually more concerned with moving ahead with their problem rather than reading what is more of a dissertation than an article.

Those who visit other forums find that even posting homework is against the local rules (e.g. http://www.unix.com/ ). Therefore mindfulness is useful if not necessary ... cheers, makyo

XavierP · 01-03-2009, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnsfine

Don't ask for homework help before trying to figure it out yourself. Give specifics about what you tried and which parts of the problem you don't understand.

When answering homework questions never do the homework. Only explain things about the specific parts that seem to be the problem and only after the OP has shown enough effort that you can tell which parts are the problem.

It's also worth considering that there is another rule:

Quote:

Do not expect LQ members to do your homework - you will learn much more by doing it yourself.

pretty much goes along with

Quote:

We would like to stress that you should fully understand what a recommended change may do to your system.

If someone else does all of the work, whether homework or not, you could end up with a crashed/unstable/vulnerable system. In the case of homework, if a teacher asks why a particular answer is correct, the poster will be stumped because we understand the answer and we know why - but they don't.

Since the earliest days, anyone running a Linux system has been expected to do some of the work themselves and I don't entirely see why that has to stop.

johnsfine · 01-03-2009, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XavierP

It's also worth considering that there is another rule:

Quote:

Do not expect LQ members to do your homework - you will learn much more by doing it yourself.

I was trying to make the point that the above isn't really much of a rule at least not as a forum posting rule.

Maybe it's good advice, but it doesn't really tell those that might ask questions from homework or those that might answer them what the rules are on LQ.

Quote:

In the case of homework, if a teacher asks why a particular answer is correct, the poster will be stumped because we understand the answer and we know why - but they don't.

I guess you had better teachers than I had or my sons now have. A teacher in a programming class asking a student questions to see if that student understood his own answer well enough to have originated it ?!! Good idea, but I haven't heard of it happening and I wouldn't bet that most people who ask homework questions here are too worried about that risk.

When I answer a student's question in a forum, I want to at least be able to pretend he is trying to learn the material (maybe despite the kind of teachers that have defeated some of my sons' learning). I don't want to warn them about the risks of getting caught if they cheat. I want to tell them how they should focus their efforts and/or re ask their questions such that the result would be learning something rather than just turning in an answer that will fool the instructor.

XavierP · 01-03-2009, 07:04 PM

Good points and I don't disagree. If someone comes here and shows an understanding of their homework problem and is stuck or missing something then we should help them. If they just c/p the question then the thread should be locked and the member have the error of their ways explained to them.

The c/p poster may, one day, be out there in my workplace. They will fail (and will have wasted their time, their school's time and their employer's time) and they may take down a project I am working on. I would rather that these people fail early than much later. I don't encourage rote learning with no understanding.

Personally, I think the home work rule should be simpler:
Do not post homework questions. We will not do your homework for you.

pixellany · 01-03-2009, 07:07 PM

Here is what I think the **de-facto** rules are:

--If you post homework questions with a clear explanation of the problem, AND show the work you have done to date, you will probably get help.

--OTOH, if you simply do a cut and paste from the instructor's assignment sheet and then don't follow up, your thread will probably get closed. (I personally will close a "cut and paste" on sight.)

--Member responses will generally be all over the map, so it really depends on how you present the question.

I guess these don't really sound like rules either.......oh well......

titanium_geek · 01-04-2009, 01:59 AM

I guess you could say that users must not use LQ with the intention to cheat or do other illegal activities (similar to the security forum rules).

As has been stated- it's the people who type in their homework questions verbatim (copy+paste) with no intention of understanding or doing any work themselves, who we don't want to encourage. (I personally believe that cheating is immoral.)

I think we need to fix the "OH! this a HOMEWORK QUESTION!! Shame on YOU." finger-wagging attitude that some responders have, especially when the question you asked was a self-study question, you did the work and found a gap in your knowledge, a problem you just don't understand, can't find anything with Google and aren't intending to cheat.

All homework questions aren't bad.

titanium_geek

salasi · 01-04-2009, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pixellany

--OTOH, if you simply do a cut and paste from the instructor's assignment sheet and then don't follow up, your thread will probably get closed. (I personally will close a "cut and paste" on sight.)

Just be aware that the "close on sight" approach reduces the ooportunities for fun amongst those of us who enjoy coming up with useless (not able to be submitted for marking) responses to "bad" questions.

In fact, that suggests one 'rule' for responders; you should never submit an answer to a homework question that can be submitted, as is, for marks.

pixellany · 01-04-2009, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by titanium_geek

I think we need to fix the "OH! this a HOMEWORK QUESTION!! Shame on YOU." finger-wagging attitude that some responders have, especially when the question you asked was a self-study question, you did the work and found a gap in your knowledge, a problem you just don't understand, can't find anything with Google and aren't intending to cheat.

All homework questions aren't bad.

titanium_geek

I agree---I now make some effort to determine if the OP is serious/legitimate--mainly be scanning thru the posting history.

A "cut and paste" homework question as a first and only post (no hello, glad to be here, etc.) is still DOA.