HandUPS versus HandOUTS

jeremy · 11-04-2014, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cynwulf

You can blame the posters who post those threads - but while the focus in on them and on putting together guidelines no one will bother to read, the problem will remain as it always has. The people to address and to get on board with this are those responding to these threads and doing other people's research and web searching for them.

By creating solid, friendly, educational guidelines to point to we can surely educate some percentage of the new members creating this issue. Making it clear that not following the guidelines will result in most senior members not being willing to provide help, we can foster an friendly environment that is both welcoming to new members while also providing more senior members with an environment that does not drain them of their desire to help and participate here at LQ.

--jeremy

dugan · 11-04-2014, 12:13 PM

Highly relevant:

http://slash7.com/2006/12/22/vampires/

In our case, I suspect that there's a language barrier involved in at least a few of the "problem" posts. I think that those users just need to be coached on how to write their questions more productively.

astrogeek · 11-04-2014, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dugan

Highly relevant:

http://slash7.com/2006/12/22/vampires/

In our case, I suspect that there's a language barrier involved in at least a few of the "problem" posts. I think that those users just need to be coached on how to write their questions more productively.

Great perspective, well and cleverly written! Should be required reading for both help-vampires and vampire-helpers.

Thanks for the link dugan!

I also think there is a language and culture (societal) barrier, or two, involved in our specific cases, more so than the author of that article may have noted. This is likely due in part to specific geographic shifts in technology sourcing (manufacturing, design, support) that dominate differently today and we see more directly than some other sectors.

jeremy · 11-04-2014, 01:18 PM

Thoughts on this as the canned response that could be linked to for offending posts? Note that this is just an initial rough draft so comments, suggestions, additions, etc. are desired.

Quote:

Hello and welcome to LQ. You were pointed here because a fellow LQ member feels the thread you started doesn't meet the minimum threshold that would enable us to help you. We understand that Linux can be intimidating for new members, and we really do want to help. That said, please understand that LQ is not a help desk, customer service line for a product you purchased or willing to do your homework (although we are happy to assist you with specifics, if you show some effort of your own!). We're a 100% volunteer organization that wants to help you help yourself.

Here are a couple tips that will enable us to help you moving forward:

When asking a question, be sure to provide as many relevant details as possible. You should include the distribution and version you're using, along with hardware details, application version and exact error messages where applicable.
If you're actively troubleshooting an issue you should also include any steps you've already taken.
You may want to include how what you are experiencing differs from what you expected to experience.
Before posting, have you used the search function to ensure your question hasn't been asked before?
You can edit your post by clicking the EDIT button in the bottom right corner of your message.

If you are unwilling or unable to ask questions in a manner that allows us to help you, it's unlikely our community will be able to provide you a solution. Unfortunately, serial offenders who show wanton disregard for this request may be asked to seek help elsewhere. We truly hope that isn't necessary, and assure you Linux and Open Source are extremely rewarding and well worth the learning curve in the long run.

Some additional reading that may help:
LQ Search
LQ Sitemap
LQ Site FAQ
How to Ask Questions the Smart Way

--jeremy

dugan · 11-04-2014, 01:47 PM

I think it would be better without the "if you are unwilling..." paragraph. The stage where that answer should be linked is earlier than the stage where that level of escalation is appropriate.

I also think that "what have you tried?" (which is essentially the second bullet) should be emphasized more.

TB0ne · 11-04-2014, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremy

Thoughts on this as the canned response that could be linked to for offending posts? Note that this is just an initial rough draft so comments, suggestions, additions, etc. are desired.

Quote:

Hello and welcome to LQ. You were pointed here because a fellow LQ member feels the thread you started doesn't meet the minimum threshold that would enable us to help you. We understand that Linux can be intimidating for new members, and we really do want to help. That said, please understand that LQ is not a help desk, a customer service line for a product you purchased, nor are we willing to do your homework (although we are happy to assist you, if you show some effort of your own!). We're a 100% volunteer organization that wants to help you help yourself.

Here are a couple tips that will enable us to help you moving forward:
Do some research on your own first. Asking that someone give you a step-by-step guide, or give you links to software or documentation is, essentially, asking people to look things up for you. Doing such research would help you learn, and may provide you the answer faster than waiting for someone to answer you.
When asking a question, be sure to provide as many relevant details as possible. You should include the distribution and version you're using, along with hardware details, application version and exact error messages where applicable.
You may want to include how what you are experiencing differs from what you expected to experience.
Before posting, have you used the search function to ensure your question hasn't been asked before?
You can edit your post by clicking the EDIT button in the bottom right corner of your message.

If you are unwilling or unable to ask questions in a manner that allows us to help you, it's unlikely our community will be able to (or WILLING to) provide you a solution. Unfortunately, serial offenders who show wanton disregard for this request may be asked to seek help elsewhere. We truly hope that isn't necessary, and assure you Linux and Open Source are extremely rewarding and well worth the learning curve in the long run.

Some additional reading that may help:

Edits in bold, but I think it's a great. Thanks, Jeremy.

rokytnji · 11-04-2014, 04:37 PM

I would just add PMing a member outside of a thread asking for personal help, (it happens to me sometimes),
is counter productive to another person reading said thread, for a solution to their problem, searching the net.

All inquiries should remain in the thread.

Any PM's I get. I explain the above and, no, I won't answer outside of the thread.

jeremy · 11-04-2014, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rokytnji

I would just add PMing a member outside of a thread asking for personal help, (it happens to me sometimes),
is counter productive to another person reading said thread, for a solution to their problem, searching the net.

All inquiries should remain in the thread.

Any PM's I get. I explain the above and, no, I won't answer outside of the thread.

While probably outside the scope of this message, you're right; that shouldn't be happening. It is covered by the current rules though, which you can point them to:

Quote:

The best place for your question is in the forum. We get a large number of emails. If your email contains a technical question we will kindly point you to the forums. This also includes using the email forms to advertise or send out surveys. Do however email us when you need to discuss anything private regarding the site that should not be asked in the forums. Please do not post requests for help via email, IM or other personal communication channels.

Since PM's can only be sent by senior members, this is hopefully not too common of an occurrence.

--jeremy

bradvan · 11-05-2014, 05:05 AM

I think that looks fine. I say put it in a sticky post somewhere and just start using it. Time and experience may point to adjustments.

jeremy · 11-06-2014, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dugan

I think it would be better without the "if you are unwilling..." paragraph. The stage where that answer should be linked is earlier than the stage where that level of escalation is appropriate.

I think it needs to be clear that there is some consequence if the information is ignored. We do need to ensure, however, that the wording is clear and friendly enough that it does not put off well intentioned new members. Thoughts?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dugan

I also think that "what have you tried?" (which is essentially the second bullet) should be emphasized more.

I've added an additional bullet-point.

--jeremy

jeremy · 11-06-2014, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TB0ne

Edits in bold, but I think it's a great. Thanks, Jeremy.

I've made some adjustments, but am unsure about the "Do some research on your own first. Asking that someone give you a step-by-step guide, or give you links to software or documentation is, essentially, asking people to look things up for you. Doing such research would help you learn, and may provide you the answer faster than waiting for someone to answer you." clause. I'm open to what other members think though.

--jeremy

jeremy · 11-06-2014, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bradvan

I think that looks fine. I say put it in a sticky post somewhere and just start using it. Time and experience may point to adjustments.

I'm going to give some additional time for feedback, but will post it to the FAQ with a permanent URL very soon. I'm sure it will be a work in progress as we roll it out and tweak it based on response and feedback.

--jeremy

bradvan · 11-07-2014, 10:06 AM

I wouldn't include the "do some research on your own first" line. I think that is implied in the other bullets and by itself can come across as a bit negative.

jeremy · 11-07-2014, 10:36 AM

I've added this to the official LQ FAQ. You can use http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...#faq_lqwelcome moving forward. A couple notes:

* We should all still make a cognizant effort to be friendly and welcoming to new members. It's likely we should come up with a canned response that includes the above URL.
* This is very much a work in progress. Additional suggestions and feedback is very much desired.

Thank you to all members who have participated in this thread.

--jeremy

business_kid · 12-27-2014, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremy

I've made some adjustments, but am unsure about the "Do some research on your own first. Asking that someone give you a step-by-step guide, or give you links to software or documentation is, essentially, asking people to look things up for you. Doing such research would help you learn, and may provide you the answer faster than waiting for someone to answer you." clause. I'm open to what other members think though.

--jeremy

How about a simple checklist on the "New thread" page, or a set of boxes for people to tick
This sort of thing:
_ _ _
1. Is this a Problem? |_| Query?|_| Comment? |_| (appropriate word is first on subject line)
_
2. Have you googled your exact error? Yes |_| (If no, go and do that now please)

and maybe some others. That's a little bit of html work, but it should be doable.