I'm trying to decide on if I should leave Debian Stable and start evaluating options for a distro with rolling releases, like Mageia. I wrote a brief blog post on where I am at on that topic. I've been thinking about the tenets surrounding the installation of non-repository software. In Debian Stable, one should avoid downloading third party software. One should also avoid bleeding edge software, opting instead for Stable-curated, tried and true, software selections. But surely Stable distro users do make exceptions. For example, how about Google Chrome?

Web Browsers -> Linux Desktop Usage -> Last Year's Averages; Chrome 50% / Firefox 30% / Chromium 7% (source).

• I won't find Chrome in the Stable Debian repository.
• A lot of folks consider it a must have piece of software.
• Obtaining it requires visiting a third party source (non-Debian, non-Repository, from software vendor website or non-Debian repo).
• This piece of software is regularly updated. The epitome of bleeding-edge software.

I think many would consider this software crucial and make an exception. It might mean they cannot upgrade to the next major Stable release by using software from outside the approved repository. General advice is to avoid obtaining software from anywhere but the Stable repository. So my questions are:

1. If you use a Stable style distro, have you chosen to make such an exception? If yes, aren't you worried about the potential future consequences of dealing with distro-unapproved software? If you aren't worried, can you explain to me why?
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2. I personally want Chrome and other select software I deem crucial, despite the consequences. Alternatives are available, but they don't make me happy. I'm afraid I might have upgrade issues when the next Stable release is ready. Given my view, do you think I would be better off going with a Rolling release versus a Stable one?
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3. If I stick with Stable and it turns out I can't upgrade, I must do a fresh install, is there any part of my Linux system that I can carry over with me to my new installation? I'm thinking primarily of software configurations, OS settings, theme customizations, etc...

i draw the line in the sand. or in water, in my country.
it depends.

most important is to understand that often you don't need to actually install the software to your system (like downloading the newest Firefox), but can run it straight from where it is.

when it comes to dependency hell (i want to install this new version of X, but it would mean i'd also have to upgrade libraries Y and Z) - i don't do it.

also one should consider statements like "A lot of folks consider it a must have piece of software." with the utmost suspicion.
it's also known as shiny new stuff syndrome.

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Can you elaborate? I don't understand how you can run a program without installing it, unless you are talking about portable distributions that are self contained inside a single folder.

Very true. Though in the case of Chrome I've done a lot of testing on my system. Firefox, for reasons beyond my understanding, is not nice when it comes to resource usage. Which is weird. This same PC under Windows observed that FF was nicer on resources than Chrome. But under Linux, I'm observing the opposite. I've spent several days testing lighter browsers on my system and I've come to the conclusion that for my needs, Chrome is the best option.

In the case of my VPN software, it was the only option as I'm still trying to figure out OpenVPN. Well, at least in terms of mirroring the features that my VPN software offers. It is possible with OpenVPN, it is just really complicated. Then there is this Bluelight filter software, Iris, which is superior to the open source options available. It is closed source though and I can't find a suitable alternative. So I want to use that, as that program is important to me.

I'm worried that as time goes on with Debian Stable, that I will encounter more and more situations where I simply have to take paths that I don't want to, just to satisfy Stable, or I have to do what I want and risk having to reinstall it all. A rolling release seems like a smarter option, though I fear going that route so soon after beginning Linux might be akin to jumping into the deep end without knowing how to swim first.

depends on firefox version. debian stable = firefox-esr? probably still the old engine.
a lot has changed since version 57. under windows probably newer FF version.
chrome is closed source spyware. why do you use debian if you then use sth like that on it? one wonders.

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Yes you are right. I was using version 59, the latest is 61, though I despised 57+. I enjoyed the extension architecture of the 56 and prior. So much was possible. After they changed it to compete with chrome by ripping out so much of the power user stuff, I started wishing I had a new alternative. Though I despised Chrome even more. So I begrudgingly stayed with it. I was excited coming to Linux, hoping I could get away from both of those options. But I'm struggling to find an alternative I enjoy. Most browsers are super lightweight and lack options.

I've been reading about the differences between Chromium and Chrome. I can't find anybody singing Chromium's praises in comparison though. I don't need anything to be new and shiny in the case of my browser. I just need it to work and not consume my limited system resources. Games used to bring my system to its knees. Now it is my web browser

chromium is open source spyware.

that's a provocative statement, but still true.
all the calls to google servers are right there in the code.

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newer software on stable = whole reason backports exists.

If something that's necessary isn't availble in backports, deb-src can be used to create a backport of it...

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Can you elaborate? I don't understand how you can run a program without installing it, unless you are talking about portable distributions that are self contained inside a single folder.

Fair enough. In fact that lack of security and big brother mentality of Microsoft, openly and unabashedly data mining it's customers in Widnows 7 and 10, is the biggest reason why I fled Windows and sought out Linux. Out of curiosity what browser do you call home ondoho?

I've only made the switch to Chrome because it quickly and accurately renders pages. I've been trying a few of the browser options in the repository and pages either load super slow (by comparison with Chrome) or they load improperly. The layout is messed up or things or missing or there is weird behavior. I shake my fist at web pages for being so unnecessarily complex these days. I miss the days when a simple HTML file was all one needed to delivery information on the internet.

I was reading up on the Debian backports site today and it looks like backporting, well the act of creating one, requires programming knowledge. So the deb-src approach is probably well beyond my capacity to work out on my own. If I have misunderstood, could you elaborate a little further?

Concerning backports themselves, it looks like they exist primarily to fold in security fixes from future versions of the same software and not new functionality. It didn't sound like new features from future software were making their way into backports. I'm also not sure how many relevant-to-me pieces of software are going to be backported. Debian uses an outdated version of Firefox and no backports exist for Firefox. At least not according to this list of all stretch backports.

The only reason I bring up Firefox is because it has to be a popular piece of software, because it is a web browser and it ships with Debian. Theoretically loads of Debian users would utilize it. According to this wiki article, there have been many new features, including the move to Quantum which is pretty darn big, and more importantly, various security and stability fixes added into the ESR releases up to the 60.1.0ESR stable release. Maybe firefox wasn't touched specifically because it moved to quantum and that would have been too big to port.

I appreciate you bringing my attention to backports Timothy. I had no idea they even existed .

With CentOS 7, life (distro) is incomplete without ntfs-3g package and it is a must have if you are multi-booting with windows. CentOS 7 does not recognize NTFS partitions out of the box. So I do enable third party repository (EPEL/rpmfusion).

For OpenSUSE 15, there are no in-built codecs to play audio/video files, so again third party repos are reqd. Also nvidia has its own repo for OS15.

I do have google-chrome (stable) repository enabled on both. But it is used only for Netflix.

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Backports is also functionality. Backports kernel is 4.17 for that hardware that isn't supported in 4.9 (my laptop I'm on now needed it for the wifi drivers), it has for instance Libreoffice 6.1 instead of 5.x. It has claws-mail 3.16 instead of 3.14. It has darktable 2.4.3 instead of 2.21. Etc.


Debian doesn't actually run an outdated version of Firefox, they run the ESR of firefox. While effectively similar, they are somewhat different things. The ESR is still security patched, it simply is based on an older version. The 60ESR is in experimental right now being tested, and will be in Buster. Sadly, ESR 60 probably will not ever make it to Stretch, which I disagree with, but I keep firefox pinned to sid for that reason. It may make it into backports, however, since ESR 60 will be the default browser in Buster.


There's an article in the Debian Wiki that explains the basics of how to create a backported package for your personal usage. It's not as hard as you might think. For the most part, it's just running a few commands that you don't even need to know what they do since you're still pulling packages that were made for Debian, you're just recompiling them for an older version of said OS.

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Like with the Pale Moon browser, which I use with Debian Stable:

(See http://linux.palemoon.org/)


Other than that, I stick with what's in the repos. And I haven't bothered with Chrome in years.

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https://wiki.debian.org/Firefox#Fire...ta_and_Nightly
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=137566

seamonkey with essential addons: noscript, requestpolicy continued, cookies exterminator, decentraleyes

what's "accurate"? there's no one proper way to render web pages.
it's a jungle that web developers are fighting with every day (with much complaining and gnashing of teeth).
there's no standard.
as a web developer, i wildly roll my eyes at you.

1. you need a webkit or mozilla-ish browser. anything else (netsurf, dillo...) won't live up to your expectations.
2. have you considered that chrome loads faster because it keeps itself running even when you close it completely?

tons of backports exist, esp. for what you are asking (you're not the first to ask these questions, you know that right?). all you need to do is add the source and install them.

maybe primarily, but that doesn't exclude the latter.
again, you're not the first to ask these questions!

you don't really understand much about debian, do you?
ESR is not outdated.
https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/organizations/

now go back to the beginning of this post, because that's what you're most likely looking for.

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Most Linux distros have a target audience. If your main use of the computer is as an entertainment system, you probably shouldn't be using Debian Stable or CentOS. If you are using your computer for business or study, you probably shouldn't be using Debian Unstable or Fedora.

My advice to the OP would be to consider PCLinuxOS: up-to-date without being unstable. But I'm so far from understanding why anyone should take decisions on the basis of what "a lot of folks consider" that I'm probably not qualified to advise him!

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My line is this: If I really need the software and can't find it or an a satisfactory equivalent in the repos, I will install from sources.

As for Slackware, I so far have found what I need at Slackbuilds.org.

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I don't have a line, but a fuzzy grey area forged by common sense and intuition.

My order of preference for new software is:

. Install from the repos
. Install from a PPA
. Install from a third-party repo
. Install from a deb package
. Run a portable program
. Use an installer script
. Build and install

I'll happily install any non-repo software if it appears "reputable" (and I'm not sure whether that can be taught, you just get the feel for it with experience).

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